An Open Letter to Sebastian

January 15, 2013

Dear Sebastian,

Recently, your wife (my borderline-ex) posted an open letter to the world. In it, she wrote what seems to be a heart-felt letter to you. But before your heart melts, you might want to read my letter to you.

For most of the world, a love letter is a very private expression of love, perhaps tucked away in a shoebox. Not so for someone who shows borderline/histrionic tendencies. She chose to post her “love” on a blog that enjoys a very large readership. Whether you know it or not, this was a carefully staged event.

She could have written a private love letter, but she didn’t. WHY?

This is a woman who wants to prove to the world that she is lovable. She wants to prove to you that she loves you. More specifically, she wants to prove she can love. But why is she working so hard to prove this? If you are not asking these questions, you have more to read.

Histrionics often explode with outward expressions of love (and hate). They shower you with affection. Jump on you when you walk through the door. Passionately kiss you in public. You will feel like you can do no wrong. This is all by design. Trust me. I know.

This is what experts call love bombing. It’s a tactic also employed by cults when they are recruiting the unsuspecting. It is an effective form of manipulation:

Critics hold that love bombing is insincere or with an ulterior motive and that it is used to reduce the subject’s resistance to recruitment.

Yes, you are a recruit. You are being recruited as an enabler. You are being recruited as an emotional punching bag. You are being recruited to fill a void that can’t be filled. You are being recruited to be a prop, a facade that is meant to create an illusion of love. But, as we all know, there is nothing real behind a facade. This is the kind of “love” your wife has to offer you.

The woman you married is a hoax. She is not who she pretends to be. She is a control-freak controlling you to make sure you don’t betray her (like her father). She orchestrates outward expressions of love like a choreographer creates a dance routine. The purpose is to keep you mesmerized and distracted, so you don’t bother looking behind the facade.

By now, you have probably noticed that she constantly has you on edge, jumping through hoops and putting out fires. She has you wondering which way is up and which way is down. This is how borderlines keep their lovers disoriented.

She keeps you on a short leash because this is the only way she can defuse her fears of abandonment. If she is love-bombing you, it is because deep down she suspects (fears) that you are on the verge of leaving her. Could her suspicions be correct?

Perhaps you’ve given her reasons to doubt your commitment. Perhaps she has given you reasons to doubt her love and question your decision to marry her in such foolish haste. Publishing that very open letter is a sign that she is now desperately trying to over-compensate for her fears of abandonment. That is a definite warning signal to you.

She is trying very hard to pull you back into the vortex. This is a sign that she senses apprehension on your part. If she ever catches on that you know too much, you will see a very different woman than the one you married. You will know the definition of being “split black”.

By creating this very public spectacle of affection, she is attempting to fool you. She is fooling herself. And she is fooling the world. This is how one stays in denial.

She will continue love-bombing you as long as she thinks it is working, because it has probably worked in the past. There is something in your personality that thirsts for this kind of attention. She knows this.

Your swing dance is actually the swing of push and pull. It is the co-dependent dance. As long as she knows she has a hold on you, she will continue showering you with very public affection. But that’s what you want. Isn’t it? Consider the possibility that the only reason why she married you was because you are so receptive to her manipulative tactics. That and her work visa was expiring.

You knew her for just a few months before you rushed to marry her. That shows alarming impulsivity on your part as well as hers. She hit the co-dependent jackpot with you.

I know you think I am her evil ex. But that is because you have listened to her devaluation and demonization of me. She needs to discredit me, in order to discredit the truth laid out in this blog. You want to believe I am the devil, so you can play her white knight. But, in reality, you are playing the co-dependent fool.

If you were to take a trip back in time, you would be shocked to realize that I got the very same treatment as you are now receiving. But I got wise to her tactics. I started questioning her ways. I made her feel insecure, because I would not play her manipulative games.

This is when she split me black, from hot to cold. Take a good look at the way she treats me now. Listen to the way she talks about me. Because if she finds out that you are on to her, you will receive the very same treatment.

I was always suspicious of her love-bombing. It felt fake and forced. At times she laid it on so thick, it made me recoil. There was a time she imagined me to be the One and wanted me to move in with her after just 8 months of dating. But I wanted no part of that. I have no doubt, she would have tried to pressure me into marriage as well.

She moves fast, that one. But I don’t have to tell you that. You should know that she asked me to move in with her at a time when our relationship was rocky. Because it is when things are rocky, you will find her staging dramatic expressions of love.

You agreed to marry her after 3 months of dating. 3 months. That’s a huge red flag. Why were you so eager to marry her? You should not only question her impulsivity. You should question your own. You should ask why you did not see all these red flags. You should ask why you were so easily duped.

You should be suspicious of all her motives. The one you married is all about ulterior motives. You should know that all my suspicions about her were later confirmed. I don’t expect you to believe a word I say. So do your own research on BPD and Histrionic Personality Disorder.

I know you are flattered by all her loving words. Don’t be. Do not let her passionate words impress you. Borderlines with histrionic tendencies are very convincing when they tell you they will “love you forever”. This is a well-rehearsed act. This is utter bullshit. She is not capable of love.

She knows flattery gets her everywhere. This is what BPD specialists call idealization. As you can see, she is very very good at making people feel special. This is a survival skill perfected by people who fear abandonment.

The cold hard truth is you are not special to her. Her love letter is a script that has been read to many lovers before you, including me. Yes, at one time, she had nothing but sweet nothings to whisper in my ear. Sweet words that were remarkably similar to the words in her open letter to you. I have love letters to prove it.

Notice how she included past lovers in her love letter. This should also be a red flag. She has done this before. She has left many many lovers in her wake. They have all fallen for her act. The very same act you have fallen for.

One forum visitor had this to say about a borderline:

She can go from “loving me forever” to having me be “dead to her”, all in a day.

By now, you may have already experienced this hot and cold treatment. This is known as push and pull behavior. It is how someone behaves when they have ambivalent feelings about intimacy. It’s how someone behaves when they have been deeply wounded by loved ones since 3 years of age.

I assume you know about her dark past. She tells stories of a dark past because it puts a magical hold on “white knights”. She has you wrapped around her little finger.

You can take this letter two ways. You can take it as the rantings of a jaded ex. Or you can take it as a sincere warning of events to come. You have no reason to believe the things I say. But you would save yourself a lot of grief, if you looked behind the facade. See for yourself, without the fog.

You are under the spell of a master illusionist. You can not see the forest through the trees. You may not want to see what I see. I am sure she has done a very good job of telling you how “crazy” I am. But as you read the contents of this blog, you will notice that a lot of it makes sense… as if it were all based on scientific fact. That’s because it is.

My advice to you is to RUN. Take what dignity you have and RUN. Take my advice or leave it. The choice is yours.

188 Responses to “An Open Letter to Sebastian”

  1. Nicholas said

    Holy god Savory Dish, that is one powerful and courageous letter. I wrote a similar one to Tasha’s latest victim a couple nights ago, but was undone by her melodramatic “bound by love” photo on Instagram. Now I just laugh at her and seem to have no feelings left about her at all. But this letter is AMAZING! I seriously wonder if it’s going to shift something in him? I wonder if you or I would have been affected if our BPD’s exes had given us the heads up?

  2. shocking said

    one of the best letters I have read in my lifetime only a non bpd would understand,I found out after i was split black that many other people was caused a life of misery at some point but the same bpd when I LATER approached these people as I knew friends of friends of friends I asked them “why did you not warn me why did you not tell me this person was crazy why did you not tell what they put you through I WOULD OF BELIEVED YOU I always thought the bitch wasn’t right but I questioned my judgement and thought I was the mad one to think such a thing of a human let alone a friend/partner” and out of the 6 people i questioned all there responses were ” (as they don’t no she is bpd I don’t either but Id put my life on the line that she as & severe) she made me believe you were inseparable you were so close she told everyone i was crazy you would never ever of believed me ” these people do not no each other but i found all them and there answer’s was exactly the same, I witness the bpd entering and destroying life’s daily i watch it from social networks and i want to warn every new person some i no some i don’t but for two reasons i wont ,
    1. they wont believe me because I have been portrayed as the crazy one i don’t no if they have been told i am but they saw would and
    2.I am NOT going through being split black again if she ever found out I warned people,

    what I don’t understand is why no one is willing to name and shame these people , not that it will make no difference I NO .

  3. naples104 said

    SD, bravo, that was a brilliant piece. Your BPD sounds exactly like mine, she left me on a Thursday evening and moved in with a man that she just had met. He and I had a little chat and he threw her out and then she came at me like the Palestinians go after the Jews. Hate messages, threats, and three days before she was telling me I was the best man on earth, I was loving, kind, generous, that she loved me so deeply that she could never love another… all the while she was love bombing she was looking fro another man because she know I was not buying the bullshit any more. Thanks for sharing that excellent response. I hep we get a lot of comments.

    Tom

  4. toughmat said

    Great insight. I have a very interesting story w my gf ex. each time we broke up she would see him. i told her i foumd it very odd esp after hearing how.he would lie cheat and beat the shit out ofnher. to her credit she did say she wantes to see him before we had any breakup just to in quotes face the monster fhat was causing her nightmares. i was so suspicious i contacted him. he admitres to cheqting and being very controling but not beating her. he said he disd a lot of bad but she was no angel. he wAs vsry confusing actuqly and go from telling me she is bad to telling me she is wonderful and to make it work. she would tell me he offered to sleep w her in a nice wqy during our last breakup. she said she left him Ns he aays he left her. i thimk he is full of shit but i know deep down they both are on some level. right now my gf is savinga.dog and it is now this big event on facebook because she posts about the abuse and neglect and how everyone is stqying apathetic. its a show. if i save q dog i save. dog. i dont need to go public. all these idiots are repostingaffirming she is q hero.. she soes have q huge heqrt

    • savorydish said

      Thanks, Mat.

      I hope all this insight helps you as well. You seem to be smack dab in the middle of it all. But you are trying to figure out someone who can’t be figured out. You can understand why she is the way she is. But no amount of rationalization will make things better for you. I’m sure she does have a big heart. Borderline women are not demons. They are deeply troubled human beings.

      They are flawed to such an extent that you will never know what is the truth and what are lies. With borderlines, the lines are always fuzzy. That’s what makes these relationships so maddening.

      It’s like Alice in Wonderland. You keep looking for a way out, but you’re distracted by all the crazy antics. Sometimes, the solution is as simple as taking a step back to view the madness for what it is. What you need at this very moment is distance, breathing space. You need quiet time to look inward. Don’t try to figure things out or evaluate her for now. Your mind is far to cluttered. Just make a clean break. Stop thinking about her. Replace your thoughts with healthier ones. Easier said than done. I know. But this is the only way.

      • Nicholas said

        “Sometimes, the solution is as simple as taking a step back to view the madness for what it is.”

        For me that meant making a choice to leave the relationship. I couldn’t get perspective any other way, despite all my friends and family telling me I needed to get away from Tasha. And I do mean ALL my friends and family. Now that I’m three months out, I look back, and see what they saw, and sometime my jaw drops open. I cannot believe what I was blind to. It’s mind boggling to think that I thought that it was anything resembling love. Someone who loves you does not try to systematically dismantle you by doing incredibly hurtful things like cheating on you, and then try to get YOU to take responsibility for it!? Or undermine your friendships because they threaten her sense of control over you.
        I’ve learned an enormous amount in the past three months. One of the most important is to really pay attention to what the folks around you are saying. Some will just hint, and some will come right out, but if people are warning you about the person you’re with, listen to those people.
        I actually worry for the dude that Tasha is in the middle of love bombing right now. I have no ill will towards him, as he’s completely unaware of what she’s really like (Internet dating is handy for disordered people), and I feel like I’m letting a brother down. She’s done this to every man she’s been with, and I know it won’t be any different with him. Oh, I’m sure that’s what she’s telling folks, because that’s what she told people about me at the beginning. It’s always the previous mans fault. I feel like I should just let it run it’s natural course, but then I read savorys letter and started to think I might need to do the same thing… I just don’t know if I would’ve paid attention in the middle of being love bombed.

  5. naples104 said

    Shocking, I know exactly what you are referring to. Mine split and blacked me out in a day and went from love to hate in a matter of seconds. I had never heard of BPD at that point and I was devastated even though she had left 4 times previously. I was so codependent that I went into a deep depression as was helped by SD and this blog and some intensive psycho therapy to understand me. I am over her and it but strangely enough I still think of her and the love bomb and how nice that is if it is real. I have been dating women and encountered 2 women that have some level of that illness and I ran in the other direction. You can recover from the insanity that these people inflict upon their victims, but it take a serious commitment to work out your own issues so you do not repeat and relive the horror of life with a borderline. God’s speed to all that are recovering from life with a borderline.

    Tom

  6. naples104 said

    Matt, get out of that relationship, you have been checkmated by a very sick mind and she will ruin you emotionally

    Tom

    • toughmat said

      Jesus i will try to be mote patient and post from comp with proper grammar and spelling.i just get excited there is.this sanctuary of.sorts where peple.get it. Thanks tom. youre prob.right. the clock is ticking before next bs incident.

  7. naples104 said

    Matt, they never stop and only get worse. The last incident we had before she left, she hit me in the head with her purse which felt like it had plumbing supplies in hit, and tried to push me over a glass sofa table and told me that she was calling the police and going to tell them that I hit her so she could put me in jail and I still begged the crazy bitch back.I never laid a finger on that woman and then she trashed me to all of our friends that I am an abuser. Save your sanity and find a mentally healthy women. They are out there. I am dating a woman that is successful, smart and most importantly mentally healthy. The most intriguing and rewarding thing about meeting other potential partners is if they are mentally healthy, you reflect on how insane your life was with a BPD and ask why did I stay in that relationship so long. I wish my former BPD all the happiness she can find, I want nothing ever to do with her again and I truly feel sad about the next lives that she will ruin. Get out Matt and heal and know others have gone before you and you can get out and get over her. When she is done with you and she will be done with you, she will be over you as she turns her back on you, trust me, that is how they work.

    Tom

    • nickheather said

      I somehow missed this Tom! So bizarre. For years Tasha told me her ex pushed her twice. Then on the last day of their big custody trial – you know, the one where right afterwards she cheated on me and left me for another man – I found out that she pushed him first. Both times. They’ll lie and twist whenever they can to get the results they want.

  8. toughmat said

    thanks again guys. 1 thing I want to make clear is that I’m not here for attention of any sort, I’m here for clarity knowledge and understanding. I felt the need to say that because I tend to post about my situation any chance I get and I started to wonder about that… how it may appear. I now have a great therapist and recently a jungian therapist as well. Coming here i guess is a wake up call despite my committment to her. my brother. hang out with us at length the last weekend. and said in quotes you do have a lot of fun together

  9. toughmat said

    and told me that I usually make it sound as if it’s all bad we fight all the time. that was the first time he remarked on her great side which I guess I don’t speak about enough to him or others. partly because others see thru the bs i guess. my bro does too but said we get along really well aand have fun.

    • savorydish said

      No offense but your brother probably shares the same tendency for denial. This kind of denial tends to run in families where dysfunction and burying the problem is the norm.

  10. naples104 said

    yup Matt, they can be fun and then they go psychotic, mine was a blast and helped when my mother was so sick with Alzheimer’s and cried with me, held me and told me she loved me like no other and then she went psychotic on me again and again and again. Trust us Matt, we all have run a marathon in your shoes. SD, me, Nicholas, shocking, all loved our BPD women and thought they loved us back like no other and always and forever, we said those words to one another ever day when we were not fighting and at the time I meant them and I am sure she wanted to mean them. Nothing is forever with them they are not capable of having object permanence, ask your therapist about that term or google it, all people are just objects to them and they cannot help that. JD is right, they are not bad people and they want to love, they are just very mentally ill. I wish you the best, but no matter what you do, do not marry this woman. Repeat, do not marry this woman.

    Tom

  11. savorydish said

    Oh and one more thing, Sebastian.

    Your wife has worked really hard to shut this blog down. She has even gone so far as to recruit rabid “feminists” to do her dirty work. Just like she recruited you. This should be some indication of how little she cares about your well-being. If I were you, I would seriously question how much she really loves you.

    In the beginning, you were sucked into her “damsel-in-distress” act. But if you have any intelligence, you will have picked up on the fact that playing the victim is her “thing”. If you have not, you may want to ask yourself why you are so blind to the obvious. Why are you so afraid to acknowledge the truth?

    Your wife has a history of nuking relationships. Bad relationships and bad break-ups are all she knows. These are patterns she learned from mommy and daddy. Her relationships may have started out as good relationships but I can assure you that they all took a turn for the worst. She likes to leave those ugly details out. She is all about appearances.

    I have provided you with a mountain of evidence, and yet you insist on sticking your head in the sand. What’s in it for you? What purpose does denial serve for you?

  12. John David said

    Sebastian, I will add my advice. Get AWAY from this woman, godspeed! She will try to keep you in a fog, gaslighting you, keeping you guessing, because her ambivalence will always be transferred to you. You are both the object of her affection and her scorn. She is manipulating you. I know, because it happened to me last summer. I finally broke free when I realized that she was going to keep stinging me, out of the blue, and I could not continue in such a farce of a relationship. I was her emotional backstop, for lack of a better description. It was ALL about her, I didn’t matter as a separate human being. When she called me out of the blue, months after we broke up, I could hear the ambivalence in her voice as she left her voicemail. She was basically expecting me to crawl back to her, which she would have secretly seen as a vindication of the ‘white’ me, but it would have also served as a means for her to further disdain me and ‘split me black,’ because what self-respecting man would crawl back to someone after being treated so badly. You see, Sebastian, you can’t win. There are better women out there, but you must recover from this false relationship first. Take my advice as someone who didn’t know what borderline personality disorder was until this past summer, and it shocked the HELL out of me. Still have some weird flashbacks and had difficulty sleeping for awhile, too, I wouldn’t say nightmares, but just this gnawing anxiety deep inside that gave me insomnia. Go no-contact and avoid her!

  13. naples104 said

    John David is spot on, as they say in Great Britain, we are in their lives for what ever period of time they need us and until they feel we will abandon them irrespective if the abandonment potential is real or not. I used to tell my BPD that I would never leave her and I would never let her go, (that’s how fucked in the head I was), and it is never enough and thank God they leave. It is hard to get over and they leave us different than we were going into the relationship. For me, she left me a better person after i saw a therapist and knowing what she suffers from. Jump off this crashing plane and heal. She will be the only survivor when she splits and blacks you. It will be as if you never existed and you will suffer. Get it over with now and find a good woman, they are out there.

    SD thanks for posting that follow up to Sebastian, but I am not sure any one can get

    Tom

  14. naples104 said

    SD thanks for posting that follow up to Sebastian, but I am not sure any one can get through to someone that is being love blasted by a BPD, I listened to no one as this sick woman dismantled my life and spent 30k of my money. That is hard to admit to because I am a smart successful business man, but this woman was better at being who and what she is than I was at being the person that I am today.

    Tom

    • Nicholas said

      I think the bottom line is that it’s one of those “I never thought it would happen to me!” Things. Falling in love is the most intoxicating thing going. And falling in love with a BPD woman even more so. The adoration at the beginning was like nothing I’ve ever known. There’s no WAY I would’ve given that up. I mean, I didn’t, and I had red flags on day one. She told me she loved me the first morning after we had sex. Threw me right off.
      So Sebastian will read all this and be thinking we must just be a bunch of losers who can’t keep a woman happy. I remember Tasha tearfully telling me all about how horrible Brian was to her, except we lived on the same little island, and I was friends with her and worked with her, and watched as she went off and started seeing a cheesy guy behind his back. So even fully armed with the truth of her and how she conducted herself, I STILL got sucked in. Only because I wanted to, which is the same reason Sebastian is doing it. He can’t imagine it’ll happen to him, but it will of course. Just like it’s going to happen to Tasha’s new man. Might be years down the road, but it’ll happen. I remember feeling so superior to Brian, like I could please her and take care of her and he couldn’t. I’m completely humbled now. Thank god. I feel embarrassed for some of the ways I felt and viewed myself because if that relationship. That’s part of how they slowly sink their teeth into you. It never felt so good being bled dry.
      No, Sebastian will learn the hard way, just like the rest of us. And he’ll come out the other side armed with knowledge he never wanted, but a wiser, stronger, FAR more compassionate man. Because I think that’s the gift they give us in the end. It’s sort of ironic that the only way they can truly give anything is after the relationship has ended, and we realize that the only way to love another, is to love ourselves first. Something they’ll probably never experience.

      • savorydish said

        It is very important to remind ourselves to love ourselves and to expect more from our relationships. The BP lifts us up for a short while but ends up casting us down to our lowest depths. It is very much a drug-like effect.

    • savorydish said

      You’re welcome, Tom. And I would agree that it is very hard for the love-bombed to see straight and listen clearly. A friend of mine is married to someone who was diagnosed with BPD and he is trying to make it work even though he caught her cheating on him. It’s frustrating, but I get why he is hooked. But I still believe that you have to try to get through. I wish someone had done this for me.

  15. naples104 said

    you know Nicholas, you are so right, I was the first to say I love you a week after we were together, the sex, the adoring of me by her was the most intoxicating thing I ever felt. Same with me, all of the warning signs were there and I ignored them and soaked the good feeling of the love bomb that was all an illusion. The devaluing of me on a regular basis was crippling and still I wanted her and only her and could not imagine a life without that. I hated myself for putting up with it but I was powerless to end it. As Shakespeare said in Romeo and Juliet,

    “These sudden joys have sudden endings. They burn up in tragedy like fire and gunpowder.”

    The love with a BPD is instant and not real. When I found out that my BPD had been married 4 times and one of the marriages was on a first date, I knew i was in deep shark infested water. When it ended I was an emotion an cripple. Today I look back and am amazed I ever liked that woman, I met a successful investment banker that works her ass off and appreciates the care an affection I give her and returns it equally. Nicholas is right, the touch stone of growth from the experience was the aftermath of the pain and you re-emerge a different, smarter more aware person. In a strange way I am thankful for the lesson. Get out Sebastian and Matt get out of these toxic waste pit relationships and built a healthy relationship with a mentally healthy woman. God’s speed to you both in seeing the light.

    Tom

  16. naples104 said

    You know SD, what you have done on here will help many for a long long time. If this site had not existed, I may never have figured out what is wrong with her and I would have begged her back until I was committed to a mental health facility. It is sad that nothing like this was available for you, but what you have done is huge. A book could be written from this blog. Thanks again SD for the philanthropic effort here, you helped save me.

    To your point about the drug like affect, it is not drug like, your brain is a chemical factory and when they are love bombing you, your brain is producing massive amounts of dopamine. That creates the euphoria and when it shuts down, which you have no power over, you will and do go through withdrawals. Resist the advice for psychotropic meds, they just prolong the pain, you will have to grieve and get to acceptance at some point if you were as addicted as I was. Recovery is real and you will recover, just have faith, love your self and get help if you need it

    Tom

    • savorydish said

      Thanks for the words of encouragement, Tom. It is always good to know others are benefiting from what I know.

    • Nicholas said

      I too have been helped immeasurably by this blog. Sometimes there aren’t words to express gratitude adequately, but I want to say thank you again savory, and everyone else who posts here: I can’t imagine I’d have gotten to where I am now, so quickly, without this blog.
      I’m wondering if anyone else has experienced a complete revulsion to even the idea of another relationship, or sex? This has happened to me. My friends keep telling me it won’t last. Normally I’d be relieved to hear that, but when people say it to me now, I get angry…!? It feels like they’re trying to talk me out of feeling that way, even though I know they’re just trying to be reassuring. And I’m not finding any women attractive at all. Even the ones I’d normally be attracted to. Nothing. Not even Tasha, who I’ve briefly seen a couple of times. I mean, she’s an incredibly beautiful woman, and I don’t even appreciate that anymore.
      Has anyone else had this happen? Is it normal?

      • savorydish said

        Thanks, Nicholas.

        Give yourself time to heal. I went a year without relationships to cleanse the palate. And now I’m dating a woman who loves to have sex all the time. Time does heal most wounds.

  17. toughmat said

    Finally I am at a computer to type instead of my phone from where I often excitedly comment. So again, I apologize for the grammar and spelling.

    As much as I trust everyone here and can resonate with things, it is hard for me to really trust because none of you have met my gf. It is within that lack of trust that lies the excuse making mechanism and desperation to stay with her to avoid pain that i have.

    She doesnt cheat. Doesnt cut. Doesnt abuse drugs or alcohol. She can eat although she is in great shape, and she can spend recklessly. Other than that, it is the other stuff that has definitely surfaced- blaming, smear campaigns during breakups, hoovers, you dont love me’s, and withdrawals to test my love with built in ultimatems.

    Lately she has been complimenting me a lot and seems super happy with “how Ive been lately”. It could be therapy, it could be my greater efforts, it could be just a temporary idealization phase and love bomb. She has been saving this dog and its all over facebook so I think she is getting her histrionic, narcisssistic traits out there and the borderline part (where I come in) is dormant for now. Thats my guess, or she is very much so healing and learning to trust me and give me some space. Doubtful.

    I am very grateful for this blog and the support. I can now understand much more, despite still being in the thick of it. Tom, I can relate so much when you said you could not imagine life without her. I have used the word impossible. To just cut it off now doesnt seem right nor what I even want. I like spending time with her. Time with her is for the most part good actually. It is when I make the decision to not spend time with her that scares me…thats where the triggers are.

    • savorydish said

      The reason why it doesn’t feel right to end it is because you are addicted to the love bombing. You are scared to cut it off because that is the fear all addicts face.

      So at some point you must face your fears and ask why you are so dependent on her to make you feel good.

      Always remember that two broken people do not make a whole. Make yourself whole and you will make the right decision.

      Right now your compass is broken. That compass is telling you that you’re headed north when you are actually headed south.

      Addicts are able to convince themselves that bad decisions “feel right” when they are in fact wrong. That’s what makes them addicts.

      What alarms me is that you say this blog is giving you insight, but yet you go on to justify your current behavior. You go so far as to rationalize your decision.

      Sorry to be judgmental, but I see no value in telling you lies. I have the advantage of being an outsider and you have the disadvantage of being in the middle of the forest. So it’s easy for me to say and hard for you to do. I get that. I’ve been there.

      So please consider that before you decide to make decisions based on your own evaluations. Your judgement will always be impaired when you are feeding off the love bomb.

      • savorydish said

        I’m sure your gal is a lovely human being. That is not in contention. But lovely people who are profoundly damaged are still profoundly damaged. Your love will not fix that.

        The fact that she has narcissistic/histrionic tendencies is a sign that she has adopted maladaptive coping-mechanisms. It makes it harder for her to heal when she is chasing delusions of grandeur. Until she can look at herself honestly, the forecast looks bad for her recovery.

        As long as you are both feeding off the love-bomb, there is not motivation to change. You are content to stay the same.

      • toughmat said

        Savory,

        I just now read your response that is specific to me (although I am sure anyone dating a borderline or in an unhealthy relationship can relate). Thank you for your honest words. I agree with everything you have said and I am tired of justifying.

      • savorydish said

        No problem, Mat. We’ve all been there so don’t think I am judging you from some ivory tower. I understand exactly why it is so hard to let go.

  18. naples104 said

    Nicholas, I had the same thing happen to me no sex drive did not even think of sex or women, I was very depressed. That went on for about 3 months. I did guy shit, went fishing, hiking, camping, shot guns… I read a great deal and one of the books that helped me was the four agreements, short read very profound.

    Then I forced my self to correspond with women on match dot com and forced my self to go out dates. I almost canceled all of them in the beginning and it was hard for me to go through the motions. I then found it became reassuring to me that I was desirable to women. Then I began to like it. I could be wrong but I think it helped restore my confidence in that area of my life. Every time I logged on I saw the BPD ex, she was on that same site, that was hard.

    I am off those sites now and have met a very nice woman that I think may turn into something nice. For me, this entire healing process took time and work. You have to unravel your mind from the shit you went through and you will grieve the loss. I encourage you to read the 5 stages of grieving if you have not done that. It sounds like you are or maybe in the depression stage which you will come out of. I will tell you I met some strange women on line and if you go out as frequently as I did, you will meet some women that are borderline or at least cluster B. You will be able to pick them from the profiles to a certain extent. Take your time Nick life will come back and zero contact with the borderline, every time you see them they try to hook you back. I took one call from mine after she left and I have never taken another call or deleted every VM that she left me without listening to it. All the best Nick

    Tom

    • Nicholas said

      Thanks Tom. I’m glad to hear I’m not the only one this has happened to. I guess I’m just not at the dating stage yet. I’ve had some attention from women, but it seems too risky. I suppose it would be something like getting back from a tour of duty in Iraq, and someone saying “hey, feel like going to Afghanistan for a while?” Because it feels like she waged a war against my heart for the past six years…

  19. naples104 said

    Matt, no judgement here and I hope it works out. I can relate, I was deeply in love at the time when I was with here and lived in fear of her abandoning me. Now that she is gone, I can see it was an illusion, perhaps not for you. From what I can see from the bloggers on here, every one is here to help one another through this horror or the horror it can become. I hope you are happy with your choices and you can ask me anything, my life is an open book and if I can help anyone with advice about what I have been through, i do All the best Matt

    Tom

  20. Sammy C said

    @ SavoryDish , WOW thats really all I can say about your letter to Sebastian , I have not spoken of it till now @ Savorydish , But you’ll remember back in April of 2012 or maybe May , I talked about my BPD/ NPD ex moving back to my City and opening a business here Well I wrote a similar letter to the News Paper that published the news story about her being a new business owner , told them who she was and mainly what she was about. It stayed up for a while then , it vanished. Did the same thing with the rating website YELP, that letter stayed up a while the YELP sent me a notice a day or so ago saying they were taking it down , cause it was personal.., WHat I don’t understand for the life of me is why am I not in court for Liable, you know if you say things openly about people thats not true , That can get you in a lot of trouble…Then I thought She wouldn’t dare cause it true…..My Lawyers would eat her lunch….She does not want that type of truth coming out. , So you letter made me feel great , I applaud my friend , It brought a tear to my eyes, But I know what my job is now is to tell every one in this community who will listen , Who this piece of shit is.., I found in doing this , at first it was to get her back now it to protect Men out there from being hurt buy this Ass Hole!!!!

  21. Naomi said

    Hi– I wanted to start by saying that I really do sympathize with your stories, and add that BPD can effect friendships as well. I have unknowingly been “the victim” of more than one female friend that basically followed the same patterns you describe here.

    I am also very frustrated to watch the machinations of another histrionic girl capture the attention of every man on campus or at a party, while more stable, sweet, and genuine girls go home alone, again. I really do feel ya there.

    I also want to agree that debate about clothing, or alcohol abuse takes the focus away from very real issues such as Female Genital Mutilation and sexual trafficking. That is the real scandal— pretty young white privileged girls pouting behind a tissue thin “he raped me” story while thousands of real victims get pushed out of the spotlight.

    I just wanted to raise a point about something that is being discussed, which is “rape culture”. I am very fortunate that I have never been the victim of any kind of sexual assault. This is partly due to careful choices and partly due to my presence (I’m almost 6 feet tall and have a “don’t even try it” general look- potential victimizer-s usually look elsewhere.)

    However, even though I don’t see danger everywhere per se, I haven’t gone more than 2 or 3 days in a row since age 13 without some kind of unwelcome, and usually aggressive, sexual overtures. Usually this kind of thing happens in the street.

    There is a significant difference between a friendly, light- heart-ed “hi” or other compliment and an aggressive, almost angry gesture (such as making a v-shape with your fingers and wagging your tongue through it “at” a woman as you pass by, or coming on to her and then yelling “Bitch!” when she chooses to ignore you). This sends a message to women: “Your only function is to be attractive to men, and if you are, you’ll be harnessed. If you choose to opt out of this dynamic, you’ll be threatened.”

    My sister chose to shave her head to a “number 1 crop” before leaving on a long trip to Europe for the ease of travel and I witness her being screamed at by men on the street with an almost unhinged level of anger. She and I were both shocked and uneasy about that. Men would scream “BITCH! LESBIAN!” As if it were some kind of personal betrayal that she had chosen to make herself less conventionally attractive to men. This is no joke and it is not “imagined” or “made up”.

    (to be fair, women occasionally screamed insults as well, but at a far lesser rate and usually it was political– i.e. “Nazi!”)

    I don’t want to minimize the pain that genuine sexual assault victims undergo, but I do want to shed some light on what more moderate feminists mean when they are talking about “rape culture”– it’s a culture where hitting on a woman and then threatening to kill her when she declines your advances is acceptable and widespread.

    It’s also a culture where women are reminded that they are vulnerable at all times to an assault that can reduce them to an object or animal, minimize or deny the events, tell them things like “If it’s legitimate rape the female body has ways of shutting it down” (wow, if only! Didn’t realize my vagina had a panic room, but good to know!), and then follow that up by noting that a child born of rape is a gift from God.

    It’s a culture where a woman asking for greater access to birth control can be called a slut in a national arena and banned from the panel discussing her own case– a panel made up entirely of men.

    I don’t think it’s only histrionic women with PD who are talking about “rape culture”, but they sure are muddying the waters, actually working against their own supposed agenda. How sad.

  22. naples104 said

    Naomi, It is sad that your dating experiences have been so unproductive and insulting to you and women in general. Their are men out there that will be respectful, obviously hard to find. I am dating a woman that says I am one of a kind when it comes to respect and I think every one does what I do, treat a woman they way I want to be treated. I have a daughter that is 27 and I told her be very specific what you want from a relationship before you date. If it s long term leading to marriage tell the men that and if they dont want to date you, they have not wasted your time. Finding a person to spend your life with is not easy and tedious. It is what we all want but some people are to damaged to give of them selves or open their hearts to accept love. Find a man that loves himself and he will be able to love you. Best of luck Namoi.

    Tom

  23. JT said

    Savory – I want to thank you for this letter and your website. It takes courage. I haven’t posted before and will at some point. I read the “open letter to everyone…” in it’s entirety, online, and it is amazing how it reeks of narcissism and instability. Everyone on this site should believe what you write – you are not just a bitter ex boyfriend – this women is deeply twisted. So sorry you had to deal with this. One idea – change the “when the woman you love” part of your site’s intro. You don’t love this women anymore. You’re way past that and have inspired us. I think you, like many of us, feel that people who commit these levels of wrongs should be held accountable. Unfortunately, there is no court that that prosecutes bad relationship partners. They get to move to the next victim. The payback is that she will keep doing the same thing to every new victim and never be happy. Living with untreated BPD is a pretty stiff punishment.
    TJ

    • savorydish said

      Thanks, TJ.

      The love is gone for me. But there are many out there who still find themselves in this unfortunate situation. So the tagline is for them. We all thought we were in love at one time. This blog serves as a rude awakening.

      • JT said

        Savory – Another crazy thing I noticed when I googled Sebastian – His Google+ profile has her last name hyphenated with his last name – like a married woman does on Facebook. Maybe it’s just an online thing BUT, I have never seen a man do this anywhere, anytime. Talk about having ones balls removed… I can imagine the conversation ” If I have to hyphenate my last name, shouldn’t you? So we are equal?…. Ahhhhggg.

      • savorydish said

        The hyphen is the least of his worries, but you are right to detect a woman who likes to emasculate her men.

  24. naples104 said

    So right guys, the toxic love bubble is so destructive, your brain releases so much dopamine to store the good feeling that these psychos project that when they leave/you leave the physical withdrawal begins. The key for me, retrospectively was allow the grieving to take place and move on to realize that what you though you had was just an illusion and none of what you thougth you were getting from your BPD was real for them, very real for you. They can split and black in a second and that is nothing that a healthy mind can do or understand. I so want to help people that are in this process and get them to the other side, the other side is heaven compared to the hell that we all have lived in or are living in. I hope you dont mind me writing as much as I do, I feel I have learned so much from SD, my therapist and all the bloggers that I feel a need to share. I am way over my BPD but I do watch carefully for those people and I run oro cover when I think I am in touch with one.

    Tom

  25. toughmat said

    Alright fellas and fellarettes, I need some clarity. Last week my gf saw me hug a female client of mine who she broke up with me over 6 months ago for going to her birthday party. (I invited my gf and she did this weird push away to test me and I didnt take her test and we broke up to make a long story short. I have assured my gf time and again there is nothign to worry about with this woman and there isnt other than the fact that she is very attractive.) This woman coaches a sport at the rival school of a team i coach so I saw her after my game. My gf was at the game and I just said hi and gave the woman a hug goodbye. My gf became a bit colder and I knew it was that. We didnt talk about it but later that night i had to scout a game and my gf came. She was being a bit rude with me and then I went to go poop. While I was pooping she texted me from the stands of the game “you know, you tend to take a long time when you go number two, why dont I just leave and then you can poop leisurely”. I wrote “whats the issue?” and she said “is that your response?” I said “well there is obviously an issue” and I ended up coming out from my “long poop” to talk to her. She said all this stuff about how my settings on facebook prevent her from seeing things and she is an open book on facebook. I told her that we are different in that regard – she shares almost everything (her doc appts, how she feels, etc) while I share nothing. She said the woman was overly touchy with me…and I said no way. We talked and it was very frustrating, especially the push away test or whatever while I was shitting.

    So, we smooth that over even though the next few days I get accusations about my lotion jar at my apartment. One night she got really dressed up and wore high heels which is rare for her and I told her she looked very nice. She said, “ya because you like girls with makeup and high heels”. I told her I actually dont, but that she looks good. I told her she is being ridiculous and I made it clear sometimes I cant win no matter what I say. Same night she gets upset at the waitress for asking us to buy a two drink minimum at comedy club even though we got food. She reffered to the waitress as a bitch to me. I told my gf it is probably the company and not her….to which she asked if it was a guy wojuld I still care about tipping the server since she didnt want to and I did. I told her yes I would still care if it was a guy and she accused me of showing females more compassion than males…no evidence there whatesover.

    So, I told her I am going on a ski trip with my brother and my friends for two nights. I was scared shitless to tell her but I knew I had to be authentic and do it. I did and mentioned how I cant wait for our next trip. It worked. Up until the second night on the trip I realized she blocked me from viewing her facebook posts. I asked her what was going on and she said “she makes the mistake of giving too much of herself when she loves someone and needs to dial it back a notch.” that she is “leveling the playing field since she cant see what I am doing on facebook”. I got super upset because I dont have any settings specific to her. Now she has these settings blocking me but literally thousands of other men (she is a popular one on fb) who dont buy her flowers, go to her doc appts, etc. etc. can see. I am still outraged. Then on the way home I invite her to hang out to watch the ufc fights. She plays a bit hard to get and says its not fair I expect her to be available when I want to hang out when I feel like it. That is the biggest load of shit. I told her all I did was invite. I told her I never place unfair demands nor do I punish or withdraw. I told her i was upset because she was purposely saying no (she wrote “I think its best I hang out by myself today”) to make a point. I called…she ingored and texted back. I told her I am done texting, I find it rude she texted back my phone call and she can call to discuss when she feels like it. She wrote “as you wish, you are being defensive over semantics”. I said “wanting to have a phone conversation to resolve this is not being defensive”. She evdentally called and I was very upfront about how I felt. She basically admiittted she hates it when I am around my friends, she basically alluded to that fact that she would like me telling the female client she doesnt like that I cant train her (in a group setting mind you) anymore. I told her no, and that she needs to stop brining that up because being accused for something that isnt there is not ok. I apologized for as many of my shortcomings as possible such as my phone dying sometimes (which I get accused for doing on purpose which I dont). We went in circles. She said she wishes I saw it her way (I would love to see a guy in my shoes have the patience to see it her way more than I do), how she never goes out with friends and I do and its not fair even though she knows and understands I need my friends, even though she doesnt like them she said. I told her she can have all the friends she wants and I support that.

    My best friend who is the biggest advocate of me breaking up with my gf on EArth says I had my favorite things – the location of my trip which I love, my brother, and my best friend…and I was still stressed out. He said I am not the same in a relationshiop with her…and I told him, as I tell Savory, that I agree.

    I dont know what to do…I am scared all of this stress will add up and I will have a health issue or something. Time is wasting. I love this woman, but when she feels slighted it is like dealing with a 5 year old who has to get her way. I have not seen much progress, although I was shocked how well she handled me going up until the fb thing which she says has nothign to do with me being away with my friends.

  26. toughmat said

    β€œshe makes the mistake of giving too much of herself when she loves someone and needs to dial it back a notch.” should have been in her first person “I make the mistake of giving too much of myself when I love someone and I need to dial it back a notch.”

    It was late, I am anxious, and I wrote fast so I hope it makes sense. I am sorry to bore you all with details, I just want to paint the picture as best I could. These are the bad moments amongst some nice ones over the course of one week. IT was a tough week. Questions are:

    Am I wrong for wanting to go on a guys ski trip?

    Is it so terrible my phone dies occasionally and I call from my friends phone to tell her and say goodnight?

    Should I cut out a female client who pays me money because my gf feels threatened by her (apparently I used to say too many nice things about my client)?

    How was I supposed to ask my gf if she wanted to hang out with me on short notice, not sure when I would return exactly from my trip?

  27. toughmat said

    Last question:

    Is she right to block me from facebook viewing because “its not fair that I can check up on what she is doing even while I am away and she cant see what I am doing”?

    • Nicholas said

      Toughmat, what you’re describing is like looking back in time on my relationship with my ex. She’s unbelievably insecure and controlling, and plays endless mind games. My friends and relatives used to say the same things about my relationship with Tasha, that your friends are saying to you. Listen to them. They’re 100% right. This woman, although YOU may love HER, has no ability to love you back, and you will continue to suffer if you stay with her. I made excuses for Tasha to everyone in my life for years, and now I’m done with her, I clearly see what they saw.
      You need to get out before she destroys you. That’s my opinion. Sorry to be so blunt, but so much of your story sounds identical to mine, and I’m so much better off without that psycho in my life.

  28. naples104 said

    Matt, Nicholas is dead on, we all have experienced what you are experiencing. My BPD walked out of a restaurant when the waitress called my mother “mom”, that made her jealous. My best advice is read your post out loud to yourself and ask yourself one question, how much longer do you want to live like this? Matt, get out that madness that we all can see because we have exited a relationship with a BPD and you are living in one. Your love of her is really fear of not having the illusion of the love you want. You do not have that love, you have hell.

    Tom

    • Nicholas said

      Here’s what I don’t miss about my relationship with Tasha:

      Being lied to. Being cheated on. Having conversations where I find myself thinking “what the fuck is going ON!?”. Being made to feel like I’M the one who’s crazy. Walking on eggshells. Feeling like everyone else in my life had to come second to her, and her endless needs – including my children. Investing my time, energy, money and love into an emotional and spiritual black hole. Going away by myself, and getting bombarded by endless phone calls and texts accusing me of cheating, and/or wanting to cheat. Sex. Yes, sex. Because when I look back on it, sex was a tool she used to control me. Walking on eggshells. Being afraid of being too happy around her because if my happiness didn’t come as a result of time with her, she’d go into a sulk and do her best to bring me down. I’m serious about that. It was WARPED! I actually used to do a mood assessment before I saw her, and if I felt really good, I’d tone it down so as not to rock the boat. Her endless war with her ex over the kids. They’re both batshit crazy, and the kids suffer for it. The way she favors her daughter over her son. One of my biggest sources of guilt is leaving that lovely boy alone with a mother who pays far more attention to his sister. I hope and pray that this new man she’s with is a good man and pays him attention, and is a good role model for him. I don’t miss the feeling of the other shoe dropping after a day or two of things being good. That “oh shit, here we go again” feeling when you know there’s NO getting out of days of stress and misery, and it all comes from the crazy inside her head, so you know there’s absolutely no reasoning with it.

      What do I miss about being with her?
      The kids. Her cooking. And that’s it. There was nothing real, or genuine about the relationship. Oh, there was for me, but to her, it was all a big game. An attempt to control me through whatever means she had at her disposal. She’s a sad wreck of a human being when it comes to love. A mutual friend told me yesterday that her desperation since we broke up has been “sad” to watch, and that even though she’s known her for 12 years, that she doesn’t feel like she knows her at all.

      Toughmat, does anything I’ve said ring familiar to you? If it does, I can assure you that there’s life after crazy, and it’s GREAT!
      Join us…

  29. naples104 said

    Matt, Nicholas is correct again there is life after crazy and it is a much better life. The text messages that I get from the woman I am seeing now are , how is your day or, want to get something to eat later, or see a movie, she never calls and screams at me, calls me names, swears at me, hangs up the phone and shuts it off… and my crazy little BPD would say things like, you hurt me, you don’t love me, you started the fight, you are controlling, you are an asshole, go fuck your self… As Nicholas said, you live in between rages and outbursts. I am sure all of this sounds familiar to you. Keep coming here and reading until you have the strength to get out and join us in a better life.

    Tom

    • savorydish said

      Mat,

      If you are unwilling to let go, then that may be a sign that you are missing something in your life. Figure out what that is and then find a way to fill that void. Fill that void with something that is real. What you have now is an illusion of being full, when you are actually running on empty.

  30. naples104 said

    matt were you abused or ignored by your dad when you were a child? Our relationship with same sex parent is very important and it is likely that the BPD you are with did not have a good childhood. Read about the attachment theory and you may discover that you are severe codependent. I know I was.

    Tom

    • savorydish said

      Excellent question, Tom. But a hard one to answer. Most people are in denial about childhood abuse. We minimize it. We dismiss it. We make excuses for it and normalize it. But that’s what makes us prime target for being victimized over and over again. We are all trying to fix the past. But we don’t realize that in order to do that we have to fix ourselves.

  31. toughmat said

    Sorry it has taken so long for me to get back to this, I have not had a moment to sit at a computer.

    I was not abused, but my mother was sick when I was 5 with breast cancer and nearly died. She went into remission for ten years and I was always terrified she died for some reason like if she was late to pick me up. When I was 14, she had a recurrence and it came back hard. She ended up dying with zero notice, the day after doctors said there would be one more drug to try then she would live another 6 months. My dad was very passive overall, and began dating immediately which at the time I despised. My only other woman was my aunt who lived far away and died shortly after. I was a virgin until 25 and always had tough time with women. Eventually I got much better with practice but it always seemed like the ones I liked didnt like me or vice versa. This one I liked and chased for awhile because she would leave crumbs. Eventually she had me hooked. if I knew what i knew now I would probably have kept my distance. It is weird to hear myself say that because I know what I know now and I cant leave.

    She resembles aspects of my mom in many ways, but my mom didnt intentionally fuck with me, it was her occupation with her own health, fighting cancer, etc. That on its own created severe abandoment issues in me, and the white knight syndrome because I wanted to save my mom. Now I am dating someone basically as sick (although athletic and good looking by most standards) as you can get without cancer.

    She has motherly qualities, and has a special uniqueness that I dont find in most people, although it is easy to tell she is different…some have called her “coo coo”. Others like me I guess consider it charming. IDk.

    She definitely fills a void. I remember without her struggling with life a bit, but I was always more laid back, immersed with great friendships, and someone people could really look to for inspiration and a good time. I have been told I lost a lot of that and act “like a zombie always on the phone”…its gotta be the eggshells. AFter hearing all the stuff I told you guys about the facebook shit said that she was punishing me and conditioning me about hanging out with my friends and going away with them. He treats borderlines.

    I really appreciate your responses. Her birhtday is coming up and I just found out she needs a pacemaker put into her stomach because she has severe nerve and digestion issues (hence her frequent vomiting). I dont stay because of that, but it is an excuse I use to stay- like “oh but she needs me or I cant leave now” when really i am just too scared or not sure or not ready. All I know is like Tom keeps saying, there must be healthier better women out there. The confusing thing is she is now in therapy and comes and tells me how she is realizing she needs to calm her emotions and how she wants to keep getting better. I have heard that song and dance before but the behavior hasnt really changed. She has her good days, sure. I dont know guys, Im not ready to make a move yet. ITs like I just go a day at a time hoping for an epiphany or until I am so fed up I hate her, or I dont know what. Its an obsession, not just about her, but what will happen, is she borderline, everything about it.

    • savorydish said

      Hey Mat,
      Thanks so much for providing insight into your life and therefore our own. We are all trying to fix the past. That is how we end up in these destructive relationships. We have to, at some point, recognize that we are merely re-opening past wounds by staying in these relationships. If you have a busted knee you wouldn’t go skiing down a black diamond slope, right?

  32. toughmat said

    *I told my psychologist about the facebook thing and he explained what you guys already can about her punishing me and withdrawing because I was with my friends

    • Nicholas said

      Toughmat, it’s hard to be where you are, and realistically, you probably won’t leave until it becomes unbearable. The great thing with doing it that way is that by the time you get there, the decision will be much easier as you’ll have reached the end of your rope as I did, and you won’t ever look back, as I haven’t. Sure, I’ve got lots of emotions, but not once have I ever regretted my decision, or wanted to be with her again. I’d never want to walk on those eggshells again. Not for all the tea in china.
      Or, maybe you two will work through it. If she’s truly borderline, from all I’ve read, it’s years and years of treatment and no guarantees. I sure wish I’d known about BPD when I was with Tasha. I only figured it out by accident and after we’d broken up.
      We’re here for you.

  33. naples104 said

    Matt, we are all here for you and have been where you are. You will leave or she will leave you at some point. As I told you, I begged my BPD back 5 times and she came back 4 times, I was a wreck when she did not return. So I am not some tower of strength, I was weak and depressed when she split and went black. I am so happy that she did not yield to my begging and come back again. my life was misery with her but I could see it. Keep coming here and reading and telling your story and you will survive this.

    Tom

    • Nicholas said

      Hey Mat, I think I’ve mentioned this before elsewhere in this forum, but I want to mention it again, because I feel it’s pertinent to your situation.
      Tasha dumped me in November of 2010, when I told her it was either Forbes, or me. Then she took me back under the unspoken condition that I no longer made that demand. She then dumped me in February of 2011, when Forbes came to visit from Indonesia. But before she dumped me, she slept with him. Then when he left, after she’d spent three lusty weekends with him, she contacted me and initiated our relationship again, lying to me repeatedly when I asked her if she slept with him. She told me the truth a month after we got back together. We stayed together and tried to work it out. It was horrible. In oct of 2012, I realized she was still the same crazy, selfish, insecure person she’d always been, and had no real interest in changing. In fact, it seemed her goal was to manipulate and control me and my life to try to mitigate her endless insecurities. I had an epiphany when we went to meet with her mother and step-father one afternoon to discuss her mothers expectations of us around our relationship…!? (Her mother is a classic narcissist\borderline, and is extremely controlling and manipulative) I clearly saw in that meeting who Tasha was slowly becoming, and who I was meant to become: Will, her sickly, long suffering step-father, who sole purpose in life seems to be as Karen’s yes man. It’s one of the saddest things I’ve ever witnessed. He’s a really nice man, married to one of the coldest, fakest women I’ve ever met in my life. Even Tasha acknowledges that her mother is a class A bitch.
      I realized in order to save myself, I had to get out, so that’s what I did. On October 10th. The reason I’m telling you all this Mat, is that it’s because I ended it that I’m doing as well as I am. It makes a HUGE difference that I made a healthy decision for myself, and that I wasn’t the victim, yet again, of a drive by dumping. And that’s what was coming eventually, because these people are NOT capable of real intimacy, and can’t get past the dramatic infatuation stage. To them, teenage romance is as far as it goes. Tasha’s in the middle of another one as we speak. Everyone who sees it and knows about it are just rolling their eyes. There she goes again. She thinks infatuation is love, and I did too, while I was with her. Now I’m downright embarrassed at the way I acted in that relationship.
      I’d strongly advise you to somehow take some time for yourself and really assess the situation, because the truth is that this is NOT as good as it gets. Once you’re out of it, you’ll look back and kick yourself for staying for so long, as I am doing. You’ll wonder what it was you ever saw in this nightmare of an emotional roller-coaster. Being single is working out great for me right now. I know I have opportunities when I’m ready, but for now I’m ecstatic to be rediscovering myself for the first time in years. One of the things that’s hit me the hardest about all this is that four months out, I’m realizing how much energy I wasted thinking and problem solving with a severely broken human being who had no interest in fixing herself, only in making sure I became as broken as she was. It couldn’t ever have worked, and I think that’s what you’re dealing with.
      I hope all this helps you in some way.

      • toughmat said

        Nicholas, thank you so much for your detailed response. I can relate too much of the comparisons, however as far as I know she has never cheated on me or involved any other men. however, as I have stayed a few times on this blog, she has seen her ex boyfriend each time we have been broken up. she claims she sees him completely differently now and nothing ever happened between them when they met.

  34. toughmat said

    damn phone again. I’ll write more when I get to a computer so it makes some sense. I hope what I sharef about my past and my mom didn’t sound like I was playing a victim.

    • savorydish said

      Not at all. Your experience with your mom should not be dismissed. It was a significant part of your formative years. It explains everything.

    • Nicholas said

      Just the fact that she brings her ex boyfriend into it is enough to tell you where she’s at commitment wise. This friendship of hers with her ex is a recipe for disaster. Tasha reassured me for years that she would never sleep with Forbes. She promised that over and over again. What you have to remember with these people is that they will say absolutely ANYTHING in the moment to ensure their supply of attention, but as soon as another more intense source of attention is available, everything they ever promised will go right out the window. They don’t have morals or values like you and I do, and they don’t have the first clue about honesty, integrity, or trust. Since we broke up, I’ve had two conversations with Tasha. She reassured me in both of them that she would NEVER contact Forbes, no matter what happened. On the same day she blocked me on skype, she unblocked him. NOTHING they say holds any water. Ever. I learned this the hard way. You are setting yourself up for a massive heartbreak. You’ll be heartbroken no matter who breaks up with who, but trust me, it’ll be way worse if she dumps you.
      My family and friends have told me in different ways that watching me and Tasha was like watching a train wreck in slow motion (those were my moms exact words. She also said Tasha was one of the dullest people she’d ever met. A sentiment echoed by all my friends) and I think all of us here would agree that we can see what’s coming for you from a mile away. We’ll all be here for you when that happens, but I strongly urge you to take back your power before she takes it from you and leaves you completely sucked dry. The nicest sweetest woman in the world is out there looking for someone just like you, and as long as you’re wasting time on this relationship, you’re closing yourself off to her. Healthy relationships do not include multiple breakups.

  35. Howie said

    Apparently, this article wasn’t written by an author intimately familiar with PD’s. Nevertheless, it makes for an insightful and good read. For what it’s worth:

    http://artofmanliness.com/2013/01/31/relationship-red-flags/

  36. naples104 said

    Matt, Nicholas is correct, multiple break ups are not part of a healthy relationship. As I have said, we broke up 5 times and I knew that was strange but the fear of abandonment was so great for me that I had to beg her back. The relationship with your mother is key to your current situation, she was both parents to you. I really encourage you to ask the therapist about the attachment theory and about object permanence, the former will open your past and teach you about what you seek in a relationship and the latter will explain the multiple breakups. I am sorry to say this to you, dont believe a word a BPD says about cheating. That is what they do, lie and cheat. Mine slept with another man the night she walked out swearing that she would never do that. All they have is sex to offer, the person is severely broken and cannot function on an emotional level. Sex to them is a drug, it fills them with acceptance and begins the control process for them, they cannot, not have sex early in a relationship. I hope I am wrong for your sake but I think I am right.

    Tom

    • toughmat said

      still not at the computer but I’ll try to write a little from my phone. in a relationship she is very much the type to stay at home and work on our own art and jewelry stuff instead of go hang out with other friends. relationship allows her to be the Hermit that she is because she has social anxiety and claims no 1 understands her. she uses fact that she does not do much and I tend to go with my friends against me, but it also provides a platform for me to know where she is almost all the time and I do not think she has ever cheated. of course, that does not mean she is . not lied about what she’s done when we’ve . . been broken up with her ex or other things because she’s probably very good at hiding things at all times which

  37. naples104 said

    Matt, my BPD did not cheat on me until she was splitting and blacking for the final time, I called her out on her life that night and that sent her over the edge, 4 failed marriages that she lied about, she cheated on all of her husbands, she married a man on the first date, she abandoned her children, they both have been to prison for drugs, sexually abused by her father as a child, does not ever take responsibility for her life situation, (all of this she lied about and would reluctantly admit it as I found out, one time she said to me, “you know a little but assume a lot”, she is a pathological liar), devalued me for all of the 2 years we were together, left me 4 times prior, I supported her and her 2 scumbag children, bought her a car and it goes on and on… She is older than your BPD, she is 52. This is way their life goes, wreckage, cover up and ruination of others. It is so sad because she has some fine qualities scattered inside her very sick mind. I know you read all of these posts, we all have the same story of BPD’s and I am saddened to say your story at the end of this life you are living will sound like all of our life stories. Keep coming and we will keep talking to you. All the best my friend.

    Tom

    • Nicholas said

      Tom, my mother was my only parent when I was a child, and from birth to about 7, I was farmed back and forth to various relatives for periods ranging from a 4-6 months at a time. We also moved all the time. I know my formative years have had a profound impact on me, and why I choose the women I do. I choose women who I have to chase. When I actually became involved with a healthy available woman, I didn’t know what to do with her, and after two kids and four years, ended up leaving her for a narcissist. It was the most horrible thing I’ve ever done. We’re great friends now, but I still feel terrible about what I did to her and my family. I try my hardest to make amends all the time. And we’re friends because I worked really hard on myself and changed profoundly. I won her respect back. She’s an amazing woman. I finally realized that I wanted and deserved someone like her in my life, rather than someone like Tasha.

  38. naples104 said

    Nicholas, I can relate, my father worked most of the time and I loved him but through therapy I am able to face that he was not a very good father when I needed him the most, he beat the shit out of me, hence the attachment theory with same sex parent is something I talk about all the time. I too have made my life a disaster with the wrong women, first wife all fucked up emotionally and became a heavy drinker, divorced her, then married a woman that suffers from histrionic personality disorder, 4 children between the 2, and then a 2 year run through hell with a BPD. I had to see a very smart therapist that could work me through this. The result for me is that I am co dependent and always will that have that tendency, I have to be aware of it and take care of me first and love who I am. I too would shy away from successful women and be intimidated by them. I am involved with a woman now that is very successful in business, a type A aggressor in business but a woman through and through in her personal ife. She is needy from an emotional perspective and that satisfies my need to fix and save. Our child hood is generally the reason we have issues some can be fixed and some cannot. The key is we have to face our reality.

    Tom

  39. naples104 said

    Nicholas with respect to the choosing of women, I went on line and looked for women that are proud of success and sought them out. The first few dates were difficult because I was afraid of them and then I became very comfortable. They are interesting, confident, funny and I realized that that is what I needed not these restoration projects of bad childhood. In the end you will get a blend of what you had in the past and what you need to be happy. The key for me was to get out and not be at home sticking pins in the effigy of my BPD. I am sad for her and don’t hate her, actually she set me free for the rest of my life I now know I can be happy with a woman that does not need me to fix her. We can only fix ourselves,

    Tom

    • Nicholas said

      Tom, I’m glad you’re able to pick healthier women, that’s got to feel good.
      I’ve never been happily single in my adult life, so that’s where my priority is right now. I didn’t even know it was possible to be happy and single, that’s how codependent I was. I’m acting in a play, joined a choir, and have lots of friends and family to catch up with now that every minute of my life isn’t spent trying to figure out my relationship. It’s figured out: IT’S DONE!!!
      I’m not sticking pins in my ex either. She’s on her well worn path, and I’m on a whole new one. I’m very excited about life for the first time in years. I don’t need or want a woman right now. Just not a priority at all. That time will come again, but not yet. I want to really take the time to get to know myself. It’s very strange for me to not be panicking about finding someone. I think it’s a sign that I’m getting healthier!

  40. naples104 said

    Nick, I am happy for you and it is a great feeling to not need a woman but rather want one in your life. I am happy single but I like being a couple. I am still codependent but so much less so than I was. Like SD said in an earlier post if you dont learn to love your self, you cannot be happy. To everyone who reads here pick up the book the four agreements, excellent way to think out of the box about your life and happiness. All the best my friend to being free and happy.

    Tom

    • Nicholas said

      Yeah, I used to like being in a couple, but I think the six years I was with Tasha just exhausted me. This weekend I have no kids, and I’m excited to just do my own things, take off and visit friends and have no one to coordinate with or answer to. I figure when I’m no longer excited by having no one to answer to, or coordinate with, is when I’ll take it that I’m open to the idea of being with someone.

  41. toughmat said

    Correct me if I am wrong, but object constancy is an issue with borderlines because if you are not there with them (or up their ass), then you must not love them and are evil. I have felt the wrath of that many a time.

    I have severe attachment issues. Last night I shared the text conversation with my best friend as it was happening (its been awhile since we have discussed it for his sake) and he just went on a rant about how I can possibly live like that and if I want a family and that I just have to break up already. I told him I appreciate his passion (as I do all of yours) but I am just not able to do it yet.

    That to me, is where my attachment issues are…I feel like I understand all of them logically but it feels like I am under a spell. Her spell. Carl Jung talks about this in his anima projection….that a woman represents parts of a man’s unfulfilled psyche and vice-versa, but sometimes these bonds of attachment are clearly not healthy.

    tonight I coached a soccer game and I invited her to the team dinner at 7 but she couldnt go because of her sick dog. Turns out the team dinner was after the game at 6 and not 7. My phone was dead and I went to the team dinner. I texted after about the game and asked how she was….she was semi interested but asked…”you just finished”? which I dismissed and then “where was the game?”. Perhaps I am the worrier of all things, but no, this is how she thinks, like a fucking detective. Now, as I type this we are fighting through text message because she said “I am not upset, but we dont communicate well”. I said, “what do you mean exactly”. Now we are on a full blown text attack about how I chose not to spend time with her (jesus christ I drove over there today to be with her mid day between my jobs and invited her to hang out all day tomorrow…this is insane!). She is saying I am being snotty because I am calling her out right now….telling her she is punishing me. She said “might as well see the fights on my own tomorrow night if you are going to act like a brat” and I just asked her “what would you have liked from me instead” which she is not answering. I told her she is now punishing me for not texting her soon enough to her liking and she says “I am done trying to make us better tonight. Maybe some other time”. I told her calling me a snot and withdrawing herself to punish me, and not answer my question that was an effort to communicate properly, is not trying to make us better. I finished just now saying ” I hope the thousands of men that genuinely care about you and love you are enjoying your facebook posts. Yet another version of punishment. Good night. And yes, that was sarcasm” (because she tells me I am being sarcastic sometimes when I am not…tonigh was the most Ive ever just called her out on her borderline shit ever)

    This situation I am in right now (adrenaline and fear) in the past would have me going absolute bonkers. Right now I am fairly calm because I know it doesnt mean the end unless I want it to. Then again, she is withdrawing a lot for no fucking reason and wants me to “fix it” like always. Then I think it should end and I get sad and scared at the thought of the loss because I do really love her. Guys, this is it. Its a big moment but I know I am just going to fucking fix it like a pussy. She is being ridiculous. The other night I took her out and surprised her with a toy. Last night I didnt come over because she said I should go play soccer when I had a chance and she had to tend to her dog anyways. Today I went over mid day for 2 hours then went to coach because I felt bad about last night and wanted to keep peace. Tonight before the fight I asked her if she can hang out before the fights tomorrow and the fights. This is a mind fuck. Thanks for listening.

    • toughmat said

      I meant i texted her after the dinner at seven thirty. i was very direct and told i wasnt awarw i was expexted to report to her after the game. on top of that we lost and she is not respecting the fact that maybe i was frustrated and had my team dinner to get too. i already fixed by texting that i am sorry she feels hurt i didnt text. she wrote back w her xoxo so now we are good til next bs.

    • savorydish said

      Object constancy is why she will never be happy and why you will never be happy. You stay because it reminds you of your relationship with your mom.
      You have been conditioned to be caretaker. Guilt prevents you from leaving. You must find a way of breaking the pattern.

  42. naples104 said

    Matt, I prefer to call it object permanence, nothing really means anything to a borderline. They have no integrated emotions, they cannot see the good in a person when they are focusing on something they dont like about the person. This how they can rage, split and go black. Generally your relationship with the same sex parent is the most important from the perspective of how you will interrelate with the opposite sex later in life. However if the mother figure was the most dominant, that parent can be both. SD is correct, until you sort out the issue with the parenting when you were a child you will make many wrong choices in the selection of women. It is the root of the reason why you are with a BPD.

    Tom

  43. toughmat said

    Thanks so much for your feedback and support. If I dont address a great point you raise I apologize, but I read them all over and over and they hopefully sink in, or will. Last night was very close to me walking away. The last two nights now have been fights and last night was a continuation of the night before. I was accused of the following:
    -always texting my friends when Im with her and taking phone calls
    -making eye contact with women because she sees them smile at me so I must be intentionally seeking approval from them and “youre not the hottest guy in the world so not EVERY woman should not smile at you”
    -since my friends have been back from Thailaind I Went back to my old habits of neglecting her and putting her last
    -accused me of being defensive and that I cant listen without getting defensive
    -she called me a “rotten little brat”
    -she took some of what I said such as “live my life without worrying about getting in trouble if I dont text” where I meant coach soccer and walk to a team party as if I meant she interferes with my ability to get shitfaced with my immature friends and neglect her
    -she was in my face, her facial expression was like she wanted to hit me, and she was using very intimidating hand gestures with a finger jab each point

    It was clear as day this will never work and she sees things in a skewed way. I remained honest and straightforward instead of just go the apologetic easy route. I remained in the car and contemplated leaving for 35 minutes in a zombie state, then decided it is her bday next week and im not ready. iT was uncomfortable to me, but I feel like her life is used to fights like that.

    I believe she exerts a lot of control and cannot see double standards. At this ultimate fighting get together with new friends because i cant bring her around my best friends last night before our fight there was a big funny guy who took an immediate liking to my gf. He did a good job of flirting in a cool way and I love taking the cool guy role of being secure and laid back. She was enjoying the attention but was good to me. Still, she would flip a lid if the roles were reversed and I was on the receiving end and inviting end of flirting, even has harmless as it was. This guy made so many comments throughout the night about women she would hate, but lucky for him, he is not her man so its funny. God forbid I talked about having eye candy at the gym.

    She makes threats about how she is going to start going out and not texting me all of her where abouts.

    More issues that dont go away. Yet, I stay. It is exhausting and no way to live. My friends tease me that she is my parole officer. Its not much of a joke anymore. I can go do whatever I want and pay a hefty price, or go the easy route as a co-dependent.

    • savorydish said

      Matt,

      You are creating laundry lists of all the accusations she ever made. That should be your motivation to leave. There is no easy route as a co-dependent . You are a slave to her emotions. It will sink in, once you allow it to sink in. You need to put some focus on yourself.

  44. naples104 said

    Matt, I hope you are close to walking away and it will be very hard for you to do that. You live in a war like environment and you rest in between fights, I lived that way for 2 years and as I have stated so many times I begged this woman back every time she left. I was extremely depressed when she left and did not return this time and went through the stages of grieving and thought that it would never end. She had stolen who I am and rendered me useless. Many hours of therapy and reading about the level of mental illness that these people are afflicted with got me through the process of letting go of her. I hope you get out Matt, you will be much happier a year from now.

    Tom

  45. toughmat said

    Good points as always. Here is a question, and maybe it will help me stop justifying things so much…but based on my stories, how are you so sure I am not the one over-reacting and blowing things (perhaps her truth is close to the truth and these are normal issues in a relationship) out of proportion? I dont think they are, but maybe my expectations of a relationship being smooth sailing for the most part and “live and let live” are false. Do I give her a hard time about anything she gives me about? No. But maybe she is not crazy and just wants a deeper and greater commitment from me…one that I feel is unrealistic and impossible to give without full sacrifice of self and life. I guess I just answered for myself, but still, I question my perception….”maybe she is right?” “maybe I do get defensive” “maybe i am not passionate enough” etc.

    SD, yes, I am a slave to her emotions. Today she was happy and nice and it makes me feel good and calmer. She runs the show, unless I play by her unspoken rules and until I am flipped on again. She gives me a hard time for my addiction to my phone so today I turned it off and she used hers the whole time. Double standard was easier to see. I noticed myself nod and smile yesterday at a male employee at the super market for no apparent reason and it dawned on me that i am not intentionally flirting or checking chics out like she tries to get me to believe, I am just friendly with all people.

    I love how she looks. I feel pity for her health situation and want to save her. We have some great laughs at times. Sometimes she can be easy going over certain topics that later become major issues and that is confusing as it gets me thinking she is rational and normal for moments when in actuality she is not. She has high moral code she constantly preaches about never lying, cheating, stealing, etc. which also gets me thinking she is wonderful and safe. She is supportive about certain topics, especially if I dont feel well which thankfully is rare. . Although today a doctor called based on lab results while i was sick with tonsilitis that liver enzymes are high and I need to re-test. Hopefully it was because I was taking a lot of advil for the tonsilitis and fighting the infection as well, but who knows. Not being histrionic here, just stating the fact that the stress of this is worrisome and serving as a bit of a wake up call.

    Its weird that I dont know any of you personally, yet I find myself looking forward to your words so much…this site is keeping me grounded in reality and sane. It is also giving me a place to express what is going on. I probably sound like a broken record a lot of the times.

    • savorydish said

      Mat,

      Do you understand that you are talking in circles? Half of your posts are about how miserable you are. The other half is about how content you are. You say this blog is keeping you grounded, but you are back where you started. I know I’m being hard on you, but it’s time to stop the madness. It’s time to put the focus on you. You can’t do that as long as you’re in a relationship that is draining you.

      The point of this blog is not to enable people to stay in dysfunctional relationships. It is not to help you stay grounded and sane while you are neck deep in the mud. It’s to help people get OUT.

  46. naples104 said

    Matt, love from a BPD which really never happens they are not capable of true love, (lack of object permanence), but if they could i would analogize it to living in seattle. I have been there many times and it rains a great deal of the time. People love it for the rare sunny days they get and they suffer through the rain for it. Your BPD devalues you like mine did to me and I would pray and hope for a good day and a small does of her love and positive attention. It was sick then for me and it is sick for you. You can have that happiness and love ever day with a mentally healthy woman, I have that now and it is nothing like when I was involved with Debi. It is not you but she has made you think it is you because you are codependent and have a need to save. Being emotionally needy, which I am and being mentally ill with co-dependence issues are very different. Codependency does not permit you to really love because you do not love your self. Learn to love you and everything about you and you will not tolerate your BPD and all her bullshit. I hope everyone comments on your letter and I thank you for sharing it. What you are going through helps us all and we are all friends and have helped each other. Lol, maybe we should have a reunion so we can all meet.

    Tom

    • nickheather said

      This is interesting guys. What we’re experiencing through Matt’s words, is ourselves before we woke up from our own nightmares. All the justifying, and back and forthing, is how we too managed to stay stuck in misery. The thing is, it takes an enormous amount of strength to get away from the gravitational force of a borderline. I could be mistaken, but I think I’m the only one out of all of us, who ended it, rather than being broken up with, and the ONLY reason I was able to do it was because I KNEW she was gearing up to dump me again, and after being cheated on and dumped the year before, I couldn’t let that happen to me again. It took a crazy Herculean effort on my part to not get sucked back in. I understand everyone’s effort to convince Matt how crucial it is to leave this woman, but he’s going to do it either when she crushes him with a drive by dump, or he realizes that he can’t handle the stress anymore, and dumps her first.
      Matt, you take as much time as you need. It’s going to be excruciatingly painful however it happens, but at least you’ll have taken control of your own life if you initiate it. And that gave me a LOT of comfort when I was withdrawing from the succubus that is Tasha Mae.
      On a side note: I’ve found my bliss again!!! I don’t think I’ve ever felt so good in my life. I don’t know if any of you have read Shari schreibers articles, but she’s right about borderlines bringing all your old damages to the surface for you to deal with. I look at that horrible relationship as a gift. I feel SO MUCH stronger in my life, and have worked out so much because of all this. And Tasha? Doing exactly the same thing she always does: validation from her latest victim. She’s her mothers daughter.
      Remember Matt, no matter how it unfolds, the pain will teach you what you need to learn, but only if you have the courage to feel it fully, and let it do the work.

      • savorydish said

        Nick,

        I agree with you that Mat is not alone. ALL OF US (including myself) can relate. In no way am I diminishing his suffering or the difficulty of breaking out of a dysfunctional relationship. It’s rough. I was lucky my bp dumped me. And even then, it was difficult to let go. But that doesn’t mean people should stop telling it like it is. I wish someone had done this for me. I wish I had been given a dose of tough love.

        The last thing we should be doing is enabling Mat to stay one day longer in this relationship. An addict doesn’t need more enablers. He needs people who will shake him out of his spell and break his patterns of dysfunction. If Mat was a drug addict, would you tell him to take his time before quitting?

        We (who have the advantage of experience and distance) have an obligation to help our fellow brothers who are stuck in the fog. Mat should NOT take as much time as he needs. Because the longer he stays, the harder it will be for him to break the addiction. Cold turkey is sometimes the best method. There is no easy way. You must experience the fear of withdrawal to get to a better place. Sometimes you have to suck it up and do what is painful to do.

  47. naples104 said

    its is interesting now that SD, Nick and I are free we can see that getting free and dealing with the pain and depression was so worth it but no one could tell me that Debi Essig was mentally ill and every one was telling me that. I was told by my children, my friends that I was being used. I am so thankful she split and blacked me out. I was destroyed at the time and wanted her back even after I found out that the night she walked out with no warning she had sex with a man she met 2 days before. Matt needs to leave before she dumps him, but he will only do it when he can handle the pain her leaving him, is more likely from what I am reading. he thinks he is in love and he thinks she has the capacity to love but BPD do not love on a sustained basis. Love is a continuum it is not intermittent and all a BPD is capable of is intermittent best case. I think we need to tell him every time he comes here and comment that he needs to get out and understand that he is afraid of losing this illusion of love that he is living which is really a hell but I could not see it when I was in it. I see it clearly now and ask myself how did put up with that shit for so long? I too have learned things about me that I would never have dealt with if not for that toxic relationship with Debi. I feel really sadly for her and the miserable life she lives. As sad as I may be for her, I wake up happy everyday of my life knowing that I will never have that type of conflict in my relationship life again. Thanks Debi Essig for the lesson in mental illness.

    Matt, trust us, she does not love you, she wants to love you but she is so filled with anger over her life that she cannot love you with out devaluing you and blaming you for her anger and fear of abandonment. At some point these fears will be too great for her to handle and she will have to leave you and blame you for what ever the break up event is. Get out now and heal Matt. We will help you through this like we have been helped. Get out of that hell you are living.

    Tom

  48. toughmat said

    I appreciate your honesty and directness. I am well-aware I go in circles, believe it or not. That is how conflicted I am.

    I have heard that I am so conflicted because of the bpd nature…the highs and lows and deciphering who the hell it is I am actually dealing with. I think I know now, and I am just prolonging the inevitable. The fact that she is in therapy and shows positive signs sometimes adds to the confusion as ive said. I literally go back and forth all day. Despite the nature of the pbd, it is my choice to think and live like this, and I take full responsibility.

    To Nicholas, I have read and consulted with Shari. She has a new article which I thought was spot on:

    http://www.gettinbetter.com/odyssey.html

    Tomorrow is her bday. A great day to be a co-dependent. I kid, but there is also great truth within my joke.

    Its amazing how passionate all of you are even after you are on the “other side”.

    • savorydish said

      Mat,

      Stop trying to figure out who you’re dealing with. You know who you are dealing with. You are dealing with a woman who is emotionally unstable. You know this. There is nothing to figure out other than how you will finally step away. The longer you stay, the harder it will be to leave. You’re going in circles because you are avoiding dealing with the possibility of living without her. That is YOUR fear.

  49. naples104 said

    Matt, we have all been helped and once you have recovered from the torture of being with a borderline you are a new person, a better you has emerged that can have a good life free of choosing the wrong women. Its a good feeling my friend but you have to pay a serious emotional price to achieve that freedom. You are paying much of that price while in the relationship with your borderline. The pain I lived with while with Debi Essig was far greater than the pain I experienced releasing her from my mind. I did not think that at the time I was recovering, but I can see it so clearly now.

    Tom

  50. naples104 said

    SD is so right Matt, we all have done this and the longer you stay the harder it is. She has you hooked on saving her, that is not love, that is an addiction and I did it too. As I have said, Debi Essig did me a huge favor in splitting and blacking allowing me to become a different man and finally enjoy every day of my life. Join us Matt and begin to enjoy your life, you have no future with this woman, she has a mental illness and you cannot fix her. All you can do is fix you or allow her to continue to damage you.

    Tom

  51. toughmat said

    Feb 6th, her birthday. Gift was ready, but I had to give blood in morning, then therapy, then some free time maybe 2 hours, then coach a game. After was a plan from over a week ago to bring my gf to my old best friend who passed away in a freak accident’s bday dinner. I asked my gf and she agreed to come.

    This morning she re-brings up why I didnt invite her in the last two years. The first year I didnt go to it. Last year I took her to Grand Canyon for her bday and dropped her off at her house, went to my friends dinner, then picked up my gf for a surprise party I arranged. So today she is trying to figure out why I didnt invite her last year by asking if there were any females I didnt want her to meet (one in particular). l told her no, and then I asked after she kept at it…”whats the issue”. She wrote how me asking whats the issue is the issue and “TTYL. Enjoy your day” I started panicking and called twice. She ignored. Then I texted a bunch and of couse she writes back but really cold stuff about how I get so defensive and Im rude. please.

    I get into therapy and discuss the issues. Then I get out and call her and we talk. I calm things down a bit but she was really harsh saying I dont share things, dont communicate, same bs. I told her I am going to give blood, work out, coach my game, then see her tonight and that I love her. I go for a brief workout and come back to my phone and she says “you will enjoy yourself more alone tonight. I wont be coming. Have a nice time”. Fuck!!!

    I call again and she doesnt pick up. I text. She texts. I call. She picks up. IT got ugly as she kept calling me selfish and that she is tired of being an afterthought that I had time to workout today but couldnt even make an effort to see her til 7 at night. I tried to rationalize and explain the last two years I came through on her bday and wasnt going to disappoint and was well prepared (poem, shoes, shirt, healing stones she likes, and a beautiful card with a promise to take her to Sedona), it didnt work. Then I just went into bitch apologetic mode and it didnt even work. I lost my mind and yelled at her and hung up. then she called back and asked if I hung up and I said I needed to in order to calm down. She goes “thats all I needed to know” and hung up on me. I texted her some nice stuff and told her I am coming over later. She kept giving me guilt trips.

    I told her Im coming and she said its too late and she left. I drove over to her house after coaching anyways and she was gone. I talked to her mom who she lives with who was pretty cool and I dropped gifts off. Went to my friends dinner without my gf and it was spent for 3 hours talking about him, life, and it was nice but I was trying to hide my pain.

    After I drive to my gf house again, and she opened the door and said she doesnt want company and basically was super mean making me feel bad for coming so late to her house (even though she initially agreed to go with me), “now that you had fun with your friends”, and tried to give me the gifts back. I asked her if she wants to break up beacuse that is what it seems like. She says, “good, good, way to go”. I have since received an onslaught of texts telling me she is done being an afterthought. “take care”. “i have no words for you. you are one audacious person. u have some fucking nerve. i need someone who doesnt drag me behind them as an afterthough”. “whatever u did it. completely. then 3.5 hours tonight????? really???? serously fuck you for that one. i dont want to talk to you anymore. leave me alone”
    I told her she needs to deal with this with her psych. I told her “today you split me black, you can google it. I will always end the bad guy because that is the pattern you repeat”. I told her I love her and understand her pain. I told her it feels as though she forgot who I was.

    I feel terrible because even if I am not in the wrong which my pscyh read a lot of our texts and said she is verbally abusing me and I was communicating in a fair way, her birthday was ruined and she is blaming it all on me. She told me, “today was the worst birthday she has ever had, worse then when she was sick in the hospital” That is very hard to swallow and makes me want to cry.

    Is this the end? It probably should be. Definitely should be. Yet I find myself just desperately wanting to please her, to love her. I need a lot of help. not asking you guys, just saying I have a ways to go. I am in the FOG.

  52. saveafriend said

    Hello guys. I just last night went on this blog for the first time. I have never dated anyone with BPD and hope to god I never fall into it as your experiences sound very troubling. The reason I am writing is because my very best friend, and like family to me is in a horrible relationship with a bpd and there seems to be nothing I can do to help him, I have spent hundreds of hours talking, explaining, rationalizing, and shaking him, and nothing seems to wake him up. He understands and admits that is not healthy but goes right back into it, putting out fire after fire. To me it is as clear as anything and he is starting to see it but I fear he does not have the courage to step up. And it pains me because I see a great young man throwing his life away. I wont go into details on how he has been in a complete fog and daze for over 2 years now. And I am not sure why I still spend hours on the phone with him listening to this last fight they have, even though i know the next one is just a day away. By the way he is all over up and down this blog. He says that it helps him cope with it. But I dont buy it, I feel that this blog, and my “help” is simply enabling him. It gives him a stage to express himself so he gets it all out, and can continue on to her. Rather than express to her what he is feeling, because as you all know at least as well as I do, she wont understand. You see, a friend, a support blog, a psychologist, are all great sources of recovery unless of course they are enabling.I am not sure if this is the case but it is starting to look a lot like it. Did you guys have a feind that was willing to do almost anything to “save your life”? If so, what the hell did he do to help? What can I do to finally put this kid over the edge and give him the courage to fight this battle head on. Thanks and I think what you guys do is great. And by the way Savory Dish, my friend sent me some of your replies to him and it is pretty much word for word what I have been telling him. Your delivery, your choice of words, and your up frontness. I dont know if you or I can help.

    • savorydish said

      All we can do is TRY to help him. But he has to help himself. Ultimately, it is his struggle. We can only help so much. This blog is just a resource. It is up to everyone of us to apply the info. You’re a good friend and doing the best you can, but sometimes that is not enough. I hope he makes the turn.

  53. naples104 said

    Matt, you diagnosed your self in the last line of your comment, you are in the fog. This story is so reminiscent of my life with Debi, the push pull of the dysfunctional relationship due to mental illness on her part, the effect it is having on your self esteem and self worth. You are becoming helpless and to a large extent are helpless against this woman. What I read is constant devaluing, discarding on her part and as you mention spitting and going black. Thn you have the typical panic that we all have felt when involved with a borderline, we must win them back at all cost to our own mental health and sacrificing the happiness we deserve. I dont know what I would have done if I knew what debi suffered from when were together, but when I did understand it, I wanted nothing to do with her. I realized how sick she was about a month after she left and I never reached out to her again when I understood her mental illness. I am not saying it was easy but I knew what I had to do for me and it was very hard. Matt, be as strong as you can be and now end it forever. You are living in hell by choice not by sentence. Get out Matt, all the best my friend, join us and live a happy and joyous life free from being with a borderline.

    Tom

    • toughmat said

      Thanks Tom. SD is so right. I am.avoiding the pain at all.costs. i long for the healthy moments when we enjoy nature discuss our past and have fun and laughs. despite her being in therapy she seems to be acting out more than ever. being with her is a really easy way of avoiding myself. I just don’t know if I’m strong enough to walk away. 1 day and I’m already imagining her with other guys and it kills me and we are not even officially broken up

      • savorydish said

        Mat,

        If you’re not strong enough to walk away, you make yourself strong enough. Re-build your self-esteem so you no longer need the drug. Train your mind, like you train your body. Work with your therapist.

        A technique I use is visualization. You are already doing it. But instead of visualizing her with other men. Visualize yourself happy without her. Stop beating yourself up. If bad thoughts sneak into your head, gently escort them out. Find ways to disrupt your patterns of thought. Make the good thoughts vivid and bright. Make the bad ones fade. You control your thoughts, not the other way around.

        CHOICE is your weapon.

        We’re here for you, but you gotta pull the cord. Become independent. If she makes a fuss, break it off. Clean and simple. Make no mistake, this is about you. Not her.

        Best of luck,

        SD

  54. naples104 said

    Matt, the thoughts of her with another man is all part of what you will go through and she will be with someone else. She is going to leave you if you dont leave her. Take inventory of the good times and dont count the good times that involve sex of any kind and make a list of all the bad times. That will tell you what your life is like. Put it on paper and every time you feel like going back read the list, as SD says visualize your self at peace, no conflict, no fighting, no apologies, just at one with yourself. You have to get there to be happy in life with or with her and you will never be happy with her in your life. Don think about how good the sex is, you will have great sex with another woman in the future. BPD’s use sex as a weapon and will have sex with any man they target, you are an object to her Matt, not a man she loves, she cannot really love you. She has no object permanence, you are not permanent, Stay strong and read books, come here and get strength from us. We will all heal the rest of our lives from this experience and learn from it. Let me know if you want a personal email address where I can give you a phone number. Sometimes talking out loud to another person is very helpful and you can gain courage and strength from that. Matt, get out now and for good, suffer the pain and fix your life.

    Tom

  55. naples104 said

    Save a friend, my best male friend warned me that I was involved with a mentally ill woman and I would not listen to him. This was 3 months into the relationship and he told me that he viewed me as if he was my brother, and he was like a brother, he said that if I continued to see Debi, he would have nothing to do with me and we became enemies, or at least I viewed him that way. When she finally left I called him and asked if he would forgive my actions, he and I met and picked up where we left off and are like brothers again. I would die for this guy. He was strong enough to walk from the friendship rather then watch me be dismantled by that psycho Debi. That is how he helped save me.

    Tom

    • toughmat said

      Tom thats sounds exactly like a situation I have with my best friend. he has threatened to not be a part of m and go no contact?y life if I stay with her, but he’s too good of a guy in sticks around and keep trying to pull me out. I would really appreciate talking and that is super nice of you. SD I really appreciate your words but I’m a little confused. you say to find independence but if you mix of us to leave… I thought all you wanna me to do is leave

      • toughmat said

        what I wrote got scrambled in my phone sorry guys. I hope you can figure out what I meant

      • toughmat said

        to SD, what I meant is it sounded like you want me to leave but then you go on and say that if she gives me a hard time to take independence. That is why I am confused.

      • savorydish said

        When you achieve emotional independence, your compass will be fixed. You will know where true north lies. Then you will be in a better position to make all the RIGHT decisions- which may or may not include leaving her.

        So first thing is first, fix yourself.

  56. saveafriend said

    Tom , thanks for the response. Let me however give you a heads up. Before you offer your email or phone number to help Mat, why dont you ask what steps has he taken to break free from this curse. i m just worried for your sake and his that you find yourself in a situation where you become pals with Mat and spend hours on hours on end talking about his relationship with his wonderful gf and once again ENABLING him. Im not sure what the cure is, but finding people to talk to and draining their every bit because they feel they can save him is something iv seen him do a number of times now and does not work. I wonder why people have this internal desire to save others. I dont understand it. I do it as well.

    Tom you said something smart. You said your friend left you completely. I swear I would do the same if I believed it would help Mat. However Mats situation as he has shared with you, has a very minimal support system. His mom passed away, his dad lives in another state, and his brother whom he lives with has his own mental disorders to deal with. So, I feel I am the only person that can still hold him accountable for his actions. And if I leave he will fall forever into her spiderweb, as he is not strong enough to do otherwise on his own.

    I mean lets be real, our friendship even now is counted. If he stays with her there is no way we will be able to be friends forever. Eventually she will succeed in separating him from all “threats” and he will live a life of hell with moments of greatness.

    Shit, I dont know what I can do but im reading this blog and im seeing his posts and I cant imagine the war he is having inside his own head. I know you guys have all said this is his fight and he needs to gather the courage to take his life back. I think your feedback is great and I hope its helping him. However like I said before, maybe its just a platform to release steam and get validated for his actions. A place he is assured he is not the monster that she claims he is.

    But at the end of the day Mat keeps begging for her back. Anyhow, sorry for posting. I know this blog is intended to help people, yet its developed into yet another panel of psychologists who want to help Mat.

  57. naples104 said

    Save a friend, He is a tortured soul, and I was there as well. I live in FL, no family, and she made sure I separated from all of my close friends. When she split and went black, for the final time, I have written several times, I was at the lowest I have been in my life. I actually thought that if I died, at least the pain would be over. I was not considering killing myself but I was looking for any escape from the pain of codependency. I had no one to turn to, all of my support system of friends walked from me. I am not saying that was right, but they saw what was happening and I refused their help and advice.

    Matt may or may not be looking to get out, only he knows. I am not telling you to abandon a friend and if you are his closest friend you will become weary of the venting that he may be doing. Only Matt is in control of his future and I hope he gets away from her and heals.

    I dont think anyone here is playing psychologist, but I have been through intensive therapy and read literally thousands of pages on all of topics I have written about and I am happy to share the concepts of why codependency creates the perfect storm for BPD. All of which I have thrown out to the readers on here about attachment theory, object permanence, actualization, integrated emotions, arrested development… I do so hoping that people will research the concepts and become of aware of why they are they way they are and seek help. People that enjoy good mental health would dump a borderline in a week, we stay forever if we can and that has a reason. The reason we stay is what Matt needs to discover so he can leave and become a happy person.

    Tom

    • saveafriend said

      Tom and SV. Im sorry if it came off as if i was claiming that you thought you were psychologists. You obviously have more experience and are more educated in this topic than most psychologists. My frustration is not towards the blog in any way, but rather at Mat and utilizing this blog as a diversion of doing what we all know he needs to do. Keep up the positive information.

  58. naples104 said

    Saveafriend, no offense taken

  59. toughmat said

    I was very moved to see my friend take the initiative to read around and comment. It brought me to tears to see the care on his part and the concern of everyone.

    To update (i WILL PUT HER QUOTES IN CAPS): She would not see me on her birthday and became extremely accusatory about telling me that i ALWAYS put her last, NEVER think of her, CHOOSE my friends first, and she is done with it.

    The following day was her continuing to tell me I need to change, how dare I not realize how bad I treated her and didnt even think to invite her to hike, or eat lunch. How dare I didnt drop everything ON HER BIRTHDAY and make time for her. She is done being an afterthought. She NEEDS SOMEONE WHO PUTS HER FIRST AND DOESNT DRAG HER IN BEHIND IN THE MUD. She used profanity profusely in her text. She continued to call me defensive. She said its like talking to a deaf bat. Late at night came the time constraints. IF I DONT FIX IT BY 1030 PM SHE WILL NEVER TALK TO ME AGAIN. THAT TIME WILL LIKELY BE BUMPED UP. I told the next day I fell asleep.

    Friday, the day she left to Costa Rica to get the dog she is saving, she called me and ripped me a new asshole with basically the same stuff for 30 minutes. I turn into a zombie. She gives me an hour to decide if I want to MAKE THINGS RIGHT AND FIX THEM or not. I realize this can be it, but I just cant get myself to literally and figuratively send her packing. Im sure no one here is surprised with my co-dependent behavior. I text her Im coming. She texts me back DOES THIS MEAN YOU WANT TO MAKE CHANGES FOR THE BETTERMENT OF US? I respond “yes”. i get there, she is lovey dovey and I take her to the airport.

    Since I have gotten emails galore about how she misses me and being there without me just isnt the same.

    Yesterday I had an appt with her own pscyh. She and I have a great relationship and we discussed why it is I go to see her in a very honest way. she is willing to see me because she thinks I am good for my gf and my gf referred me awhile back before forbidding me….I have checked in with her for a session every now and then and she puts the focus on me and my issues.

    She listened to some of my stories and basically told me to give myself permission to detach and know that I am a good guy. That her reactions are not my responsibility. That her reactions trigger my fear of abandonment and I feel like I must fix things or she will leave me. That her messages are historically full of shit when she gives time constraints and I dont need to get worked up or react to her tantrums.

    She is a unique therapist and uses certain tools in therapy. Yesterday she used the I-ching as a guide towards the end of our session. It is a chinese Book of Changes. I found it helpful and calming. Basically the message from the I-ching was this:

    –focus on developing my inner strength-void of envy, needing to fix, needing to control outcomes, and being ok with detaching
    -things will begin to reveal themselves more and more…I should focus on remaining calm, free of worry
    -things will get chaotic, and very hard…and I must know that it is ok and that it is for the best
    -the ultimate goal is to live with grace

    i told her many people are telling me to make a change already and begin the process of healing by separating from her. She said that may be true, but not to force it upon myself by beating myself with guilt. Not to force it upon myself by calling myself a pussy and a coward for remaining. Ultimately it will be loving myself and treating myself well, and living authentically that will reveal the truth and set me free into the life I am meant to live….whether it is with my gf or without.

    I am aware not all psychologist are great, and I would be open to hearing your opinions. I hope this documentation and focus on myself serves others in some way, shape or form.

  60. naples104 said

    matt, sorry to hear about the devaluing and splitting that she put you through. I would get a therapist that deals with cluster B personality and not a general therapist, they dont know the dangers of being with a borderline, the advice you should be getting is get out now not take your time and decide. Every second you stay with her is doing more damage to you and making it harder to leave and recover. Read your entry carefully and know that your life is only going to get worse. I know you dont think that is possible but it will get worse. Be strong Matt and leave this psychotic waste of time, she is stealing you and replacing Matt with a controlled dysfunctional man that she will dump when her pain can not be tolerated any more with you in her life.

    Tom

  61. Ben said

    ToughMat- I’ve read through your posts on this thread. You sound like I did when I was trying to gain the courage to break up with the BPD girl I dated for almost two years. I won’t go into great detail about my history right now since I’m replying to you. I’m a fourth-year med student who has learned a lot about BPD through my schooling. Unfortunately, I’ve also learned a whole lot more about BPD from personal experience of dating a girl with BPD. She was undiagnosed, and the only way I learned that she had BPD was during my Psychiatry rotation as third-year med student. Maybe someday I’ll try to share more about my story and the things I’ve learned on a guest post or longer comment thread here if the author will let me. The intricacies of the borderline mind are hard to fathom.

    Enough with my backstory. I know you’ve come to this blog looking for more information. I don’t remember you saying that you know your girlfriend has BPD (does she carry that diagnosis?). I would imagine you’ve come here because, deep down, you know the turmoil of your relationship doesn’t feel right. And, if the things you’ve written here are true, IT IS NOT RIGHT OR NORMAL. I understand what you’re going through. People with BPD are incredibly gifted at cutting off your support system. It’s tough to leave when you feel like you have no one to turn to. Females with BPD are usually also very attractive (physically), and you’ve said you find your partner to be incredibly attractive. If you feel that you can’t “get” someone that attractive again or you are believing the lies you’re being told that “no one will ever love you like I do,” I can assure you that those statements are untrue. I feel for you- I have been in your shoes (as have many, many other posters on this board). I offer you encouragement and support. But, the choice is yours. Nothing we say is going to convince you to leave. You have to choose this for yourself. It will hurt to leave, for a short time. But, in the end, you will see the light and can use the time to improve yourself and recognize ways in which you might be attracting these types of people. It will also allow time for you to work on gaining back your self-esteem and confidence that may have been robbed (along with your sanity).

    The final thing I’ll add is this: you can either choose to leave or continue putting up with the abuse you are living through (and make no mistake, it is abuse). I don’t say this to be mean or cruel, but what assures you that if you stay, she won’t ever leave?

  62. toughmat said

    It has been a few days now since I have posted….I started to wonder if posting the problems really mattered…hearing “get out” over and over and not being able to do shit about it was weighing on my self-esteem. I appreciate all of the urges, nonetheless.

    Here is a recap of what has gone on since my last post:

    -she came home early from airport with huge puppy and was stressed and tired
    -next day I had work and she slept over and borrowed my car to then pick me up from work. She found a pamphlet called “100 Signs Of An Abuser” and I had circled a bunch of things. Inside of the pamphlet or near it were my notes from Costa Rica detailing all of the bad moments. She read them and kept them. I got in the car and she was pissed. She eventually asked why I am with her and I told her all of the great things. She then revealed what she read and told me I am two faced, a liar, she cant be with me, and why would she be with someone who focuses on the negative, that I was projecting, and more. I dropped her off at her house feeling super guilty and very low.
    -next day more texts about the same stuff and I tell her over and over that I love her, but those incidents did occur and it was my way of handling them. Too much black and white thinking to grasp that I can love her and feel anger towards her at the same time. That day I have flowers delivered to her house that say “behind the clouds, the sun is always shining” ….doesnt work and yes you can make fun of me for that.
    -Next day, the day before valentines I go pick up glass for 4 hours at a hike where some idiots shattered tons of beer bottles because my current/ex (not sure yet) gf was sad about animal danger and also mentioned she wanted to go back to do that. I didnt respond to her mean texts for the time period doing that and returned to tons of texts. Some are forwards from her conversation with a woman where they talk about how she can do better, some from her accusing me of being selfish, etc. and then time constraints that if I dont contact her by 7 pm then its over.
    I text her I Was busy and she can go outside to her recycling to see why. I left the bag of glass shards out there. She told me it was very thoughtful to communicate that way and why I didnt stay to see her. I told her I was not sure if it was smart to see her yet or if she wanted to (truthfully I was fighting to get her back but still ambiguous).
    -Valentines she texts “I would say happy valentines, but its not. Just like my birthday. Have fun doing whatever important things you have” I dont reply but drop a gift off at her house that I knew she would like. She texts later that day after coming home to get it and we end up having dinner. She says we still need to talk about the notes I wrote but since its Valentines we can wait.
    -next day she screams at her mom like crazy and I thought about texting the mom that I get that too sometimes.
    -interestingly the mom texts my gf that once I did text her during one of their fights that I deal with that level of anger too but did not specify when.
    -my gf then asks me if I did that and I said I guess I did but not recently which is true
    -she sits on bed and starts crying that she doesnt trust me anymore and I ALWAYS put my friends first, SELFISH, LIE, she says if I want to look at girls when she is not around then to just walk away because that doesnt meet her standards. that if only I treatded her like m brother. on and on. I knew it was not healthy to sit and take this one sided accusation about how I suck as a boyfriend but I did and then I teared up and told her I can do a better job. We make up. I go hangout with my brother and she and I text some nice texts. At night my phone was lost for a couple hours and I used my brothers phone to tell her. She withdrew bigtime accusing me of lying and that I could be at a club, and acted like a bitch. Not “oh that sucks thanks for letting me know” or “glad you got your phone back”.
    -Next day (saturday) she told me not to bother seeing her. That I must have more important things to do. Dont trouble myself. (these are tests, right? to see how much ill sacrifice for her like on her birthday)
    -I take more verbal asshole ripping on the phone and make up by being mr nice guy again.
    -that night is not the most fun but it was ok…some tension
    -yesterday I worked a lot all day, she was super happy with texts because I rubbed her neck in the middle of the night and she said it felt like when I first started dating her
    -Today-She was very stressed in the morning because of all of the dogs. She says “I hate my life, I really do” and was telling the dogs out loud how much she does for them and why they have to not eat their food like little brats. I wonder if she would speak to her kids like that? Last night I didnt tell her when I was leaving her house this morning and when we woke up she asked. I knew I fucked up. I told her not sure about a half hour which would have been 8:45 am I think. She looks mad. I am worried. She goes, “well Im going to walk the dogs”. I offer to come. She says “no, you dont have time, it takes longer than half hour”. Not stern, more like bitchy. I get up and act like Im going to walk the dogs and she starts popping off about how I have such an important day in my uber important life. To cut it short I left and her mom was witness to this and kept repeating “ok you guys need a break”.

    So, in come the devaluing texts today and I just wrote back some nice stuff about how I am sorry I couldnt make her happy. She says I dont meet her standards because Im a liar, my friends are bad people, etc.

    I have been here before. I can always fight to get her back and part of me still wants to. The void, the pain, the guilt that I could have done more. I could have told her last night and been “communicative and devoted” like she keeps begging me to be. My logical side says that she overreacted like crazy and became extremely bitchy. As I say, the polarity of this stuff kills me…we have been best friends, supporters, teammates, but so many times I trigger her and I turn into nothing.

    I am grateful to everyone here for their advice. I am about 50/50 right now whether to move on or go back. I should probably be 100 leave, 0% stay but im not there yet. I dont see this getting any better. She wants to surveillance my life, cut out my friends, and complains I fall asleep early, my friends call me late which means I must stay out late with them…its all her insecurity. The same insecurity, the health issues, the tough past, that I thought I could patch up with enough love.

    What now? Take my life back is what I will probably get. I miss her already. Thanks for listening.

  63. toughmat said

    Ben, I would love to hear every detail of your story. Tom, your advice and feedback is welcome and always very helpful. SD, the bpd sage, thanks for your advice and as always I will be frank in that I cannot promise am not crying wolf yet again.

    One more interesting thing- the older sister has this similar pattern with a current guy where they keep breaking up and making up. The mom was on the phone (my gf and mom live together as roommates) with the older sister and said “well, then you need to get a restraining order”. I guess we know where some of the ideas about men come from. To the mom and the daughter’s defense, they are all very attractive and I cannot imagine what it is like with crazy, unpredictable men out there. I showed some minor signs of crazy last breakup so I will have to contain myself this time. Accepting her with other men and not sharing our fun trips is proving the hard already. If I make it to no contact that is when the real test will begin.

    • savorydish said

      Mat,
      I seem to recall that just months ago, your GF filed a restraining order against you.

      That is NOT because YOU are crazy. That is because she, her sister and her mom are crazy. This is what BPs do. They get involved with someone, split them black and then file restraining orders against them.

      The longer you stay with crazy people, the more likely it will be that you turn crazy. Or you’ll end up in jail. DON’T do this to yourself. Hammer that into your head. Keep going to the therapist. STOP trying to figure out your relationship. STOP fighting.

      Use your time to build up enough strength to leave this hot mess. Quit cold turkey and surround yourself with friends. Do all the things she won’t let you do. Give her the clear message that she does not control you.

      SD

  64. naples104 said

    Matt, Ben is right, no one here wants to or can convince that it is time to go, I was not strong enough to make that decision, my BPD left me, as I have stated in the past, she left me 5 times and came back 4. I am glad beyond words that she is gone. I have healed and found out why I chose the women that I have. It took time and it was painful. I had some nice memories with Debi, but she is insane as is your GF as is Ben’s and you are being abused. Ben is correct, you will love again. I wish you the strength that i did not have in making that decision to leave. I thought if I loved her enough she would change and she did not and cannot, she is insane and always will be.

    Tom

  65. toughmat said

    Thanks Tom. Sd you are correct although i did drop gifts off and once waited for her on a horrible night when she ignored me. it was her way of gaining power bck when i couldnt commit. She judt sent me an apology text but said its because all of the times i have been wrong added up. She also said she doesnt expect me do understand how difficult her life is now because I ‘ keep my life simple’ as if that is a bad thing. how was it that the same brain can be so sweet and fun and giving and loving and then at the same time turn on a dime

    • savorydish said

      How? Personality Disorder triggered by the trauma of childhood sexual-abuse. That’s how. Asking this question over and over again is not helping you. Instead, try asking how you can gain the strength to leave. Then all other questions will become moot.

  66. naples104 said

    matt, they live in a state of repressed rage, they are not really happy just not raging and angry at the moment. I did not know that she filed against you, Debi threatened that the last time she left and I decided at that point I would use all my strength to not go back with her. Matt i fear you will end up in jail and she will ruin your life. people that love one another do not file restraining orders against one another. It is time Matt to suffer the pain of breaking up and become free and happy. There is love and life after this for you Matt, it’s better and healthy but you have to heal first.

    Tom

  67. naples104 said

    Matt, BPD women are all about revenge and they take their anger out on the people they would like to love but cannot. Many men end up in jail when involved in a BPD relationship. I made sure I was not going to jail and lose visitation of my children because of a domestic violence charge or a violation of a TRO. They can literally see you in a grocery and flip out and call the police and have you incarcerated. Matt, its time to protect yourself and begin a new life without insanity in it.

    Tom

    • Observer said

      It’s not just the BPD women. My ex was a male borderline and he also threatened me, and I never did anything to him.

  68. saveafriend said

    Sorry guys, i must still be on this thread and woke up to 10 emails. Tom and SD, you two are absolutely right about everything you are saying. However, I am sure you guys have heard Einsteins quote, “insanity is doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results.” Mat has been through this now over 100 times, yet he still asks the wrong questions. The line between what he is capable of doing and how this crazy bitch will react to it is thinner than you think and Mat can end up in some serious trouble. I cant help him even though I dont know that I have ever tried helping anyone as much as this in my entire life. I told him I will be there for him and have his back in every way if he choses to live and move on, but if not, hes on his own. This goddam relationship has aged him, its changed him, and it has become his entire existence. Its a shame and painful to watch. I think we all need to stop enabling him. I ask you Tom and SD, while your advice is spot on, have you seen anything different from him. Why should we as friends give so much of ourselves and get absolutely no progression in return for our efforts? I want happiness for Mat more than anyone, but unfortunately more than he wants it for himself.

    • savorydish said

      Most of the guys on this blog have been stuck in the very same pattern. I was lucky. My ex broke the pattern for me. But you can be certain she made all sorts of threats. Helping someone and enabling someone are two VERY different things. We all know this can not end well. That is why we are telling Mat to get out.

      Will our efforts work? Chances are slim. The grip a BP has on her subject is masterful. They know exactly what to do to keep you around just a little bit longer and then how to push you away when the fear of intimacy creeps in.

      They will always keep dangling enough hope in front of you to keep you thinking things will work out. She has more pull than all of us combined. That is a fact.

      So… is Mat a hopeless case?

      Maybe, but we (who have been there)have an obligation to keep trying. Because we would want someone to do that for us. Your friend is in deep. Only he can pull himself out. But rest assured knowing that your help means a lot to him. It will take all our combined will power to help him out of the hole. And even though we might fail, it does make a difference.

      Mat is not insane. He is in trouble. Deep trouble. Addiction is a hard habit to break. He needs all the friends he can get.

  69. naples104 said

    Save a Friend, he is in quicksand and it does not release you. he is a different person for now and until he gets out. It is more likely that she will leave him and that is when you have to help him stay away and have no contact. These people are demon souls, she will threaten him if she thinks she is losing control and devalue him to the point of helplessness. Save, I would still be in the relationship with Debi had she not left, I confronted her with her life and she could not take the pain of her reality so she did me a favor and left. I could not leave, I was helpless. I now look back on it like it was a bad dream, it is surreal, it has not more energy. I am now back to the person I was only stronger and better and much of that healing is as a result of the support I received here and therapy with tons of reading about Cluster B personality disorders. Stick with him, Matt is worth saving. I am committed to helping any person that is trapped in a relationship with a BPD. It is almost impossible to do this alone. Nicholas walked out but most of are left behind and don’t leave.

    Tom

  70. toughmat said

    this is the same pattern of every break up so far. first the devaluation and then come in the mixed messages that include alterations between love, challenge, mentioning that I need a simple girl, telling me that I’ll be better off and happier with my friends, saying that now I can finally be happy because I’ll be free from the stress that she causes me. it confuses me and I know it’s all just a game to get a reaction out of me but it still gets to me. the main theme is that I always could have done more know if I really wanted to I would have done the tiny easy efforts that she’s been asking me to do the whole time. she makes it sound so simple as if what the heck was I thinking it was so easy and I just really didn’t want to do it. that yes I was just too selfish and neglected her over and over. she says that her anger comes from hurt and I should know that because I read all about PTSD. it is true that she has a PTSD diagnosis. I just think that after reading so much about PTSD and it being related to borderline,
    she has elements of both. my friends and family always get on my case for trying to find out the truth about her or diagnose her and just tell me I should focus on myself and leave. I think most of the here understand the importance of finding out the nature of the woman or man we sell for in order to understand what the heck was going on. or perhaps it is really just me avoiding myself. I’m starting to see how it is a drug like a fact because I just want to go back for the good times and hi, when the low and feeling terrible at another break up is probably right around the corner. her therapist, who I think is great is offering to do a joint session to help us better understand these conflicts. I want to go because perhaps I can offer a healthy closure, but I worry because my girlfriend is very clever at the train herself as calm cool and rational when I know she is not. I have plenty of her text messages saved and this time I would just read them to the doctor. I highly doubt my girlfriend would even want to meet unless I committed to the relationship first. that has been her stance in the past

    but you never know. in my got it says it is time to run and not look back as you guys have all been saying, but my heart still on for her and I still have so much sympathy and I know deep down she is a great person just troubl

    • savorydish said

      Don’t kid yourself, Mat. You aren’t staying with her because you sympathize with her. You’re staying with her because you are addicted to chaos. You find an odd comfort in all the drama. That’s why you read texts to your therapist. That’s why you post stories here. Sorry to be so blunt, but I think you need a dose of reality. There is nothing romantic or heart-warming about this story. You are not doing yourself any favors by making it so.

      This pattern stops when you pull the rose-colored glasses off your face. You are an addict and she is your drug. Stop trying to figure her out. That is not helping YOU. Figure yourself out.

  71. toughmat said

    I use my phone again to get this message out so I really apologize for all the typos. sell for ahould be fell for. there are plenty of errors but hopefully you can decipher them. I’m sure you’ll tell me not to go to the meeting and just go no contact. I should also mention that the therapist offered the idea of the meeting to me not to my girlfriend yet. I have a unique relationsp with her therapist as I have said.

  72. naples104 said

    Matt, when you accept that she has a mental illness that in all likelihood she will suffer from for the rest of her life you will be forced to answer a question, do you want to deal with that illness for the rest of your life? I just hope that she has not made you as mentally ill as she is when you accept that she cannot be cured. It is time to leave my friend, having said that I did not have the strength to leave, therefore I hope she splits black on you and you have no choice.

    Tom

    • nickheather said

      Mat, I cannot believe when reading your posts how exactly your relationship is, as mine was, with Tasha. Even the “you’ll be better off” proclamations. The thing, of course, is that it’s true, and like Tasha, your gf knows it’s true. My life is exponentially better than it ever was with Tasha. I’m actually really happy now. Like, REALLY happy! I’ve reconnected with my family and friends, made new friends, am having fun with my kids. You wouldn’t believe how much room you make for good things in your life when you get rid of crazy, abusive girlfriends. I’m LOVING being single. No one to answer to, no one to fight with, no more crazy circular conversations. So liberating. And I did it. That’s the most important part. I actually made an extremely hard decision to wrestle back control of my own life, and it has paid off hugely. Four months later, and I’m a new man. She’s just repeating the same sad pattern she always has: jump straight into another relationship. I don’t even care! I care about my own life. Let her live her drama, I want NO part of it. I wouldn’t trade the amazing peace and love in my life now, for all the crazy sex in the world. Not a chance.
      You are deep into the drama. You keep trying to placate a cornered animal, and it’s never going to work. It makes no sense to you right now, but you are on a dead end street, and this woman’s sole aim is to destroy you. That’s how she feeds. She’ll destroy you, and then easily and HAPPILY move on to her next victim. Whether you understand it or not, that’s what’s happening. The only question is, will you wait around for her final blow, from which it may take you years to recover, or will you get out before she gets to deliver it?
      I want you to think about something. I’m fairly sure I’m the only one on this blog who left my borderline before she could finish me off. The other guys were all dumped. Compare my story, and where I am after four months, to theirs, and where they are. It took me about three months to really start to feel better, and at four I’m fantastic. I NEVER expected to feel this good again, let alone this quickly. I believe a massive part of that is because I chose to leave.
      Sorry guys, I’m not trying to make anyone feel crappy, just illustrate to mat the difference between being dumped by and dumping a borderline. My first relationship was with a borderline and it took me about five years to get over that one.

      • savorydish said

        I wouldn’t go so far as to say her sole aim is destroy Mat. Borderlines have destructive tendencies, but that is not necessarily their aim. Don’t confuse them with psychopaths. They hurt people who love them, because that is their defense-mechanism. Intimacy causes them to flip out. That is what makes them dangerous.

  73. naples104 said

    matt, nick is 100% right, being dumped by a BPD is devastating. I was a mess for a while. I sought out counseling very quickly and fought back the urge to stay home and do nothing, I reached out a few times to crazy Debi and when she told me that she hated me and wanted me dead or in jail, spread horrible rumors about me being abusive… I ceased all contact with her, blocked her email, her phone numbers and deleted every picture of her and threw away everything that was hers or things she gave me. She was physically erased from my life but not emotionally, that took a long time because she was in control of the break up. I was not much better than a vegetable with emotions at that point. Dont let her do that to you Matt, she will dump you, it is inevitable, she cannot stay in a relationship, this one or any relationship.

    I am different than Nick, I dont want to be single, I like being a couple so I have been searching for a woman and I have been fortunate to find one that is not mentally ill. I suffered for a year before I was able to realize that Debi out of my life was the best thing that ever happened to me. If you make the decision to leave you are in control of your emotions, if she splits and goes black on you, she will control you until you are able to break free of her effect on you. Good luck Matt

    Tom

  74. toughmat said

    Thanks guys. she just exted me this- ‘THAT is how you solveyour problems? You are the most untrustworthy person i know. thank you for doing that you made it so easy. you no longer exist’ i wrote her back i have no idea what she is talking about becausr i dont. unless she found this site but i dont think so. i will probably find out or she is testing me. but the mere statement that i no longer exist sounds CRAZY even to me and i can take a lot. When she becomes abusive and mnipulative it feels obvious. Then the memories of good timea and her being stable kick in and its so hrd.

    • savorydish said

      Tom is right. Her stability was an act. She was faking it to make it. But faking it has not been clinically proven to cure lifelong trauma.

      You are fondly remembering her act. You are chasing a rainbow, hoping that it leads to gold.

      The person you see now is the real BP. She knows you know too much. So she is wiping you out of existence. That is her way of hurting you. That is her reacting to the pain of perceived rejection.

  75. naples104 said

    Matt, remembering the good times is called “euphoric recall”, its not real, its fear of loss of the life that you want but do not really have. The life you have is the life of an addict, addicted to the drug of a BPD. I have been there as have all of the guys on this site telling you to get out. Stop answering her texts and let her go, she is not real, you are living in hell and all you see is the illusion of love. She is not capable of love Matt.

    Tom

  76. Ben said

    ToughMat, get out. As everyone on here has already said, LEAVE THIS RELATIONSHIP. Please, do it for your sanity. These women are not psychopaths, but they do live with a distorted view of reality. Here’s a snippet of my story: I dated a girl for two years. She was the most physically beautiful woman I’ve ever laid eyes on. Ever. That’s not bragging, it’s just the truth. Things were incredible for the first six months. I could do no wrong, everything was always fun and flirty, the physical attraction (and action) was amazing. Then, things slowly started going off. We said “I love you” very early in the relationship. She was talking about marrying me and wanting to go ring shopping about four months in. She’d come up with ridiculous accusations of me being attracted to or checking out other women. If we ever went to a public spot where other women were around, it was sure to cause an argument. Her jealousy knew no bounds. She began to want me to spend less time with friends, coming up with reasons that I shouldn’t hang out with them (and, I was so head over heels for her, that I justified these reasons and convinced myself she was right). She got upset when I went home to see family and didn’t take her with me (six months into the relationship!). She wanted me to get off Facebook so “girls can’t contact and flirt with you” even though she stayed on Facebook, and later I would find out that she was messaging guys back and forth all the time. You see, in a way, they project all their dysfunction and bad behavior on you. She had a long string of unstable dating relationships both before and after me. When we broke up, I broke up with her because I was a first year med student and couldn’t take the craziness anymore. I would go study in the anatomy lab on a Thursday afternoon and, after studying with a group of about ten other students for an hour, would walk out to my locker and have 30 missed phone calls from her, all with voicemails accusing me of cheating. We broke up, and within a month she was sleeping with someone else while I was left picking up the pieces and trying to put my life back together after cutting out lots of friends and family for her. Now, all of this was my fault. I don’t ask for sympathy. I chose to do date her and allow her to get away with crazy behavior. It falls on me. But, after about six months, I was able to get things back in order in my personal life. And now, I am so much better off because of it. The story that best sums up my relationship is this one: shortly after being accepted to medical school, she picked a fight about all the nurses I would be interacting with. She said she knew I would be flirting with nurses all day, every day (which was completely irrational). I never cheated on or flirted with other people while we were together. I can look back now and see all these behaviors and accusations were mainly projections from her psyche onto me. We were sitting in my car and she said, “You’re going to let me pick out your nurses one day when you open up your clinic right?” I had no response for that, other than to say I couldn’t guarantee anything since that was about 7 years away. I also told her I thought that was completely unreasonable. She immediately started hitting me on my wrist and chest (like, physically punching me). She hit hard enough to cause a hematoma on my wrist, though she didn’t hit hard enough for it to hurt at the time. Honestly, that’s not my machismo talking- it really didn’t hurt. But, the wrist hematoma drew some attention at school the next day. After she was threw hitting me and saw the hematoma, she immediatly started crying and saying, “You can do so much better than me.” She never once said she was sorry, but rather that I could do better than her. Kind of a Freudian slip looking back on it now. Regardless, we stayed together for another 3-4 months because I didn’t back out. Shame on me.

    The story doesn’t end there though. After breaking up, she started seeing someone else. Immediately. I lived in the same town as she did, about two miles from where she lived since she wanted us to “live close by each other” while we were dating. After the breakup, I had to get up every morning and go to school. We passed each other driving down the road twice, and she immediately began accusing me of stalking. After passing by each other twice on the road of a major city we lived in. She reported this to the police, who questioned me but waved it off on the basis of how ridiculous it was. However, I was advised to be sure to try to avoid ever running into her, because to them “it was apparent she has something against you” and the law favors women in these cases (and borderlines know it). So, I laid low and focused on school for two years, doing my best to stay away from places where she could potentially even be (how messed up is that?). Two years after breaking up (and being accused of stalking), she contacts me. She’s had two failed relationships and says she has “changed” and all our past relationship issues were “due to immaturity.” So, being the idiot that I am, we hang out again. No hand-holding, no physical touching, nothing. Just meet for dinner once every couple weeks. As we meet, I am seeing things in a different light. The manipulation, the lying, the grandiose thoughts, the emotional instability, the underlying self-loathing and unhappiness mixed with low self-esteem that permeates everything in her life. I ask her why she thinks her relationships always fail? Her answer: I just date jerks that always treat me bad (knowing full well that I am not perfect, but I certainly didn’t treat her bad. If anything, I bent over backwards to make trying to make her happy). I start to think, “Where have I seen this before?” Then it hits me- on my psychiatry rotation working with borderlines. I finally just came with it and told her I thought she had BPD and she should see someone to talk things out and get treatment. I told her I said this not out of anger or disappointment, but because I wanted her to be happy and have healthy relationships (and I do, just not with me). Her response? She stands up, curses me out, tells me goodbye forever and that I am the one with mental issues, tells me she has been to see a psychiatrist and told she has no issues, and storms out of the restaurant. Haven’t heard from her since. Painted black and done for life.

    Now, there is a lot more to the story than that. I have spent a great deal of time researching BPD as a med student, out of personal interest and due to the requirements of my psych rotation. I did not know that my ex-gf had it while dating. She has not been diagnosed that I am aware of, but I can bet you everything I own that she is BP (with some other cluster B characteristics thrown in). It took a great deal of time to get over all of this. A relationship with a BP leaves you as an empty shell if you invest time and energy into them. Nothing you do is ever enough.

    Toughmat, I would encourage you to do what needs to be done. Free yourself and begin to work on improving your life, so you won’t repeat this relationship. Breaking up is hard to do. You will be lonely at first, but as you reconnect with friends/loved ones, it subsides. Eventually, you see how abusive the relationship was and how much better (and more sane!) your life becomes. Also, you will eventually find a non-BP to date, and appreciate the true intimacy and love that a relationship like that brings. But, make no mistake, we can’t choose this for you! Stop rationalizing her behavior and making excuses for her! If she loved you, there would be no baseless accusations brought against you. Unfortunately, our legal system in America greatly favors women (this is needed in some instances, but in situations like the one you’re in, it sets you up at a great disadvantage). Get out before she brings some accusation against you and gets you thrown in jail or slaps you with a restraining order. If my ex had successfully brought stalking charges against me, I would’ve been thrown out of medical school. They can, and will, ruin your professional and personal life if you let them. Get out now-save yourself before it’s too late. You can’t save her- only she can recognize her issues and seek treatment. Even then, it’s a long road, and no guarantee can be made that she’ll ever “heal” completely.

    I do feel sympathy for these people. I’m sure it’s tough to see your friends marry and have healthy relationships while you are never able to keep a relationship together for long (or, you repeat the break up/make up or marry after only dating for three months). The mind of a borderline is fascinating, and the etiology of their condition is still not really understood. Make no mistake, they are abusive. If a man treated a woman like BP’s treat their partners, the man would be thrown in jail. However, I don’t think they sit at home and plan to be mean. A lot of it is subconscious and pre-programmed, but that is another reason why you must leave. They can’t always control it- why would you stay?? Finally, don’t ever believe that BPD is an excuse for their behavior. It explains it, but it does not excuse it. Abuse is never ok- never! If they can keep it together enough to be successful at work, it just means you are their emotional punching bag at home.

    • Ben said

      Sorry, so many grammatical errors in my above post. That’s what happens when you type a long response too quickly.

      Toughmat, I would add this: You seem like a nice guy who’s rationalizing her behavior. I don’t mean to be rude or ugly, but think about this- what makes you sure that she won’t leave you down the road? If you stay in this relationship, are you 100% convinced she is in it for the long haul? Are you sure she’s not cheating (or, at least, talking to many other men) on you right now? Do you have this nagging sense in your gut that you can’t trust her?

  77. naples104 said

    Ben, thanks for sharing that. we share similar experiences, mine BP tried to have me put in jail also and did not wait a month to sleep around, she did it while we were together. Like you, beautiful woman and incredible sex were the cornerstones of what we had, I found out from her mother that she married a man on a first date. That’s how fucked up she is. Matt, Ben is right, get out.

    Tom

    • nickheather said

      Mat, I cannot believe when reading your posts how exactly your relationship is, as mine was, with Tasha. Even the “you’ll be better off” proclamations. The thing, of course, is that it’s true, and like Tasha, your gf knows it’s true. My life is exponentially better than it ever was with Tasha. I’m actually really happy now. Like, REALLY happy! I’ve reconnected with my family and friends, made new friends, am having fun with my kids. You wouldn’t believe how much room you make for good things in your life when you get rid of crazy, abusive girlfriends. I’m LOVING being single. No one to answer to, no one to fight with, no more crazy circular conversations. So liberating. And I did it. That’s the most important part. I actually made an extremely hard decision to wrestle back control of my own life, and it has paid off hugely. Four months later, and I’m a new man. She’s just repeating the same sad pattern she always has: jump straight into another relationship. I don’t even care! I care about my own life. Let her live her drama, I want NO part of it. I wouldn’t trade the amazing peace and love in my life now, for all the crazy sex in the world. Not a chance.
      You are deep into the drama. You keep trying to placate a cornered animal, and it’s never going to work. It makes no sense to you right now, but you are on a dead end street, and this woman’s sole aim is to destroy you. That’s how she feeds. She’ll destroy you, and then easily and HAPPILY move on to her next victim. Whether you understand it or not, that’s what’s happening. The only question is, will you wait around for her final blow, from which it may take you years to recover, or will you get out before she gets to deliver it?
      I want you to think about something. I’m fairly sure I’m the only one on this blog who left my borderline before she could finish me off. The other guys were all dumped. Compare my story, and where I am after four months, to theirs, and where they are. It took me about three months to really start to feel better, and at four I’m fantastic. I NEVER expected to feel this good again, let alone this quickly. I believe a massive part of that is because I chose to leave.
      Sorry guys, I’m not trying to make anyone feel crappy, just illustrate to mat the difference between being dumped by and dumping a borderline. My first relationship was with a borderline and it took me about five years to get over that one.

      • nickheather said

        Mat, one of the things I notice about your posts is that you write about her and what she’s said and done most of the time. That is one of the hardest aspects of being with a borderline to break: Constantly trying to figure them out. They train you to do that. It’s a hallmark of all abusers. If you’re always thinking about them, you have little time for anything else. I think what shocks me the most about my relationship with Tasha, is how completely blind I was to how stressed and unhappy I was. I was miserable. I didn’t even know what happy felt like in that relationship. I do now! Happy is a free, light, excited, hopeful feeling. It is NOT the temporary absence of horrific, catastrophic stress, mixed in with thoughts like “whoa, this is really nice. I wonder how long it’s gonna be before that crazy ass bitch throws a lunatic monkey wrench into the works. Again…?” Nope, that’s not happy Mat, that’s insane. And you know that feeling well, don’t you? I remember so many times hanging out with Tasha and saying to her – after maybe a day or two if relative peace – “wow, this is GREAT Tash! We’re actually having a good time together!” She’d give me this look, and guaranteed, within a few hours she’d throw something crazy at me because GOD FOR-FUCKING-BID, I should be allowed to feel happy for two seconds. Nope, her only way to keep me on my toes was to keep me spinning like a top at all times. Bitch. We live on a small island together. Her new boyfriend lives in Vancouver, so I don’t see them together, but I see her every once in a while. Every time I see her I get this flash of rage. I cannot stand the woman. She’s a lying, cheating whore who is hell bent on control and wrecking every man she comes into contact with. Sorry Savory, but even if she’s not conscious of it, she IS hell bent on some level. She’s a succubus. A siren. Get away Mat, before she amputates your soul.
        Wow, I guess I’m still angry about being abused for so long!

  78. toughmat said

    I really appreciat all the support today guys. and Savery I also appreciate you being blunt. I have never really experience drama in my interpersonal relationships until this 1. the most drama I have experience has been with my younger brother and that is because I am extremely codependent and always wantt o fix him. over the years by pushing him in sports and telling him how to eat and trying to fix his compose of skin picking problem I have created a bit of resentment and him towards me. nonetheless we resolve a conflict very quickly and have a great relationship. I have learned to back off and he’s learn to express himself and we get along fine. so to save re I guess what I’m saying is that I hate the drama but it seems worth it to me or that she seems worth it to me for some twisted reason. and yes either she is playing a game with me today or she really did split me black because of some of the truth I reveal to her about her. to Nick and Tom and savory, and then, I really don’t think my borderline is as extreme as yours. I guess since I don’t have proof she cheated and she was incredibly loyal. she actually gave me what she asked for and never looking at other men and never talking about other men I never going out anywhere like a hermit. I understand that is not healthy either I’m a specially since I would be punished for having a life outside of her and trying to continue to live it. I think she has a deranged concept of love and what a real healthy relationship is. she wants to know where I am and what I’m doing all day and if I don’t tell her I get accused of not sharing anything. the most common theme was when I was away from her she would always find some way to get under my skin to draw attention and I hated that. obviously I know I’m still confused and it’s probably a parent in my writing. 1 thing I have learned about myself in therapy is that I have a problem with being angry as it feels immature to allow myself to be angry and express it.. my psychologist said I contain younger and tell other people and let them get angry for me or to validate what I feel or think I should feel. you guys are all great and obviously you want me to walk away I just feel like I will be such a let down if I cant pull through

  79. toughmat said

    okay this voice input method is not work for clear messages. I will write more when I get home to a computer. some of those terrible grammatical errors are me talking into the phone

  80. toughmat said

    Today my gf saw her therapist. She wrote the following: “I know my anger, though i may feel IS justified because of the things you do (or deliberately dont), but the projection still shouldnt be. Because you are fragile too and we are like kids struggling playing tug-of-war. Im going to continue working on that. I started making progress and lost sight of it out of frustration. We both do more harm than good when we behave out of fear. Which we both do and fail to compromise the way we should have and could have. We are really good…if you exclude our crap communication. My psychologist said she was the same for the first ten years of her marriage and now they are great. It cant take ten years for me, but a lot was put into perspective.”

    I basically told her thanks for saying that but i need to fix myself at this juncture as i am realizing I am doing her more harm than good.

    She wrote: “sooo…what do you want/choose to happen and how?”

    I havent responded so now she is calling.

    • saveafriend said

      I have an idea for you “Tough” Mat. Go to the living room, open the window, grab your phone, throw it out as far as you can and hope an 18 wheeler runs it over. That way maybe you will cut ties with this bitch of a human that is destined to ruin your life. Its so clear to me and all of your fellow friends on this blog what she is doing. But i afraid to say, its obvious what you will do. Fall for her kind words and fake approach to getting better. I wish you the courage to step up and take control of your life. This is a great opportunity to do so. Money time, whats it gonna be “Tough” Mat.

      • savorydish said

        @saveafriend

        While I agree with your sentiment, I’m not sure if questioning Mat’s toughness is the way to do it. People who struggle to leave a BP are already suffering from massive low self-esteem. Lowering that self-esteem makes it even harder to let go. The BP becomes their life support.

        Mat needs strength and confidence if he is to leave the BP. He needs positive support from his friends as opposed to being belittled.

        Leaving a BP is not as easy as it sounds. It is as hard as leaving drug addiction. It is an addiction. That is not a metaphor. It is hard science.

        Treat Mat as you would an addict. Be firm but be loving. He needs all the help he can get.

  81. toughmat said

    My friend is exhausted of seeing me and hearing me and trying to help me out of this situation. I cant blame him for expressing frustration. He has been nice, supportive, hard on me, but none of it seems to work. In his mind, it is clear as day and it just comes down to making the decision to start the painful process of letting go. For me, for some reason it is (or feels) far more complicated than that.

    She had therapy yesterday and started texting me some rational and calm things. Then we ended up talking and I told her that i cant give her an answer right now but I appreciate her communication style. I told I know it is not what she wants to hear but I need to take time for myself, at least on that day. It didnt go over well and she went closer to her normal mode of communicating saying things about how she is done waiting to see if i think she is worth it. I explained it is the same pattern- she percieves slight, pushes me away with devaluation, then tries to reel me back with any combo of love bombs, guilt trips, time constraints, threats (and prefaces them with “this is not a threat”). I said, can you blame me for being hesitant? She slightly agreed and blamed it on her ptsd, but said if i was committed to being devoted and didnt put her last and my friends first this wouldnt happen.

    I had to hang up and told her its a lose lose and I love her. She started texting bs about the same stuff- how I just wanted the fuck. I ignored.

    This morning I got a long text about how she is givnig the dog she adopted in costa rica away because she cant handle it and it was “ours”. If I never conned her into thinking I loved her and only to focus on the negative (my notes) she would have never come to costa rica with me, and would never have the heart break of giving up the dog and our heartbreak yet again. How she has spent over 3000 dollars on the animal and I of course didnt help.
    It sucks to heart that stuff for many reasons. I do feel guilt. I do feel bad. I also feel bad because she is willing to go to any length to get a reaction out of me and I just take it.

    I talked to her therapist last night on the phone and told her what happened (specificaly the nice logical effort that turned sour when she didnt heart what she wanted) The therapist said i need to focus on soothing myself and it was good that I was honest about not being able to make a decision and need time. She said my gf reactions are not my responsibility and I need to take care of myself. It is always nice to hear that from her, but ultimately Im not dating the therapist or her potential ability in healing my gf, but i am dating a damaged human being….as SD and everyone has said a million times.

    I am in that stage where I am telling myself…”I dont care, I love her”. and “this will be my last attempt”. Its my same pattern….and perhaps my friend is right, toughmat is not so tough afterall. Viktor Frankl says in life the goal is to find meaning. He says that meaning can be found in 3 major ways:1. creating or producing 2. loving someone 3. suffering.

    This relationship gives me a lot of meaning….loving someone who is very challenging to love and the feelings in me it creates, both unhealthy (obsessional and needing to be needed) and healthy. Perhaps like Saveafriend and all of you have said and actually have been through, I am just avoiding the suffering and the meaning I will find in that.

    • savorydish said

      “This relationship gives me a lot of meaning”

      Bingo. This relationship is giving you something that you desperately need. The key to letting go is not being “tough”. The key is finding a way to give your life meaning without her. A man who is starving will grab dirt and shove it into his mouth. But a man who is full will walk away from a three-course meal.

      Identify your needs and then fill yourself with other things that will satiate your needs. Then walking away will be less complicated. Because, truth be told, you are the one making it complicated. You are creating your own obstacles. Because in your heart of hearts, you don’t really want to leave.

      • nickheather said

        Hey guys, I’ve created a Facebook group called ‘surviving a borderline’ thought we could utilize chat sometimes if anyone felt so inclined. My Facebook is Nicholas Heather, and there’s a pic of me with my four kids. Feel free to add me and I’ll add you to the group.

    • nickheather said

      Well Mat, even if we’re not helping you (and ultimately, I hope we are), reading your posts is certainly helping me to be completely satisfied that I did the right thing in leaving Tasha. There’s no way I would ever want to return to the mindset I was in back then. The one you’re in now. There is no love in this for you, at all. One of the hardest things you’re going to have to accept, whether you end it, or she does, is that she never loved you at all. Love is action, backed up by words, and all you have is empty words, and no action. Even in those rare moments when she’s being sweet and nice, it’s only her manipulating you so that you’ll stick around for a whole longer so she can further murder your self worth. Once she’s succeeded in doing that, you’re hers for life. And at that exact moment, she’ll cease to have a use for you. I witnessed this watching Tasha’s mother with her poor whipped husband. I saw clearly what Tasha wanted me to become, and ran for my life. These people don’t know love Mat. Love is kind and respectful, not the way you’re being treated, and not the way you’re treating her either. When we end up with manipulative people, the ONLY way to survive is to play their game. About this time last year I began attending a men’s group where I learned to take responsibility for myself and my life and actions. It was from that experience that I really began to see Tasha for who she really is. It was a painful process, but ultimately led to me getting away from her toxic grip. Maybe there’s a similar group in your area?
      Something that’s also familiar to me is that you’re getting a lot of attention from this. You’re comfortable playing the victim, and it’s easy because she’s actively abusing you. However, is that really the way you want to be in the world? At the mercy of whoever decides to take a dump on you? Maybe you’re too scared to take care of your own needs. I can understand that, as this is the first time I’ve done it, and I find it terrifying at times. I wonder if I’ll ever want to be with anyone again. I can’t imagine it now as I’m still exhausted from the last six years, but I’m hoping that will change one day. Yeah, it’s tough, but it’s worth it Mat, it really is. The life you’re living right now is a sad existence, and it’s only going to get more sad if you continue with this woman.

  82. saveafriend said

    Nice post Nick Heather, but Mats just going to think to himself you dont really know her. Thats how he justifies things. Its quit sad actually. SD, no disrespect was intended in my previous post. I think you provide a great service and really help people. I was just saying there comes a time where you have got to make a decision and deal with the consequences. Mat will blog on this post for the rest of his life if you let him. As for bringing him down, that is not my intention. Like Mat said its exhausting trying to help a friend that dosent seem to want to help himself. And as for the whole addict thing, come on my man. We have all been through shit as have I. It hurts, you take it, and you fucking move on. I have never been in a BP relationship and I dont have a low self esteem and I did come from a healthy home so I cant necessarily relate but I am in now way disregarding or disrespecting the things you guys have been through but i do think happiness is a choice. And in Mats case, this back and forth and uncertainty is an excuse. He is capable of more, i know him. He is a strong character with solid values. Hes just chosen the easy rode.

    Moreover how do I remove myself from this blog. I dont think I am beneficial to the guys that have taken the stand to move on nor am i beneficial to Mat anymore at this point. I commend you guys for your efforts. I hope for the best for all of you.

  83. naples104 said

    Matt, its not about being tough, its about having enough love for your self that you will not take the devaluing and discarding that BPD’s are professional’s at. Nick is so right that life without these people is no much better but you are addicted as we have said so many times. You are losing your friend, is that what you want, to give up more of your important piece of your life to an insane woman? SD is right, you dont want to leave nor did I and I did not leave, she did. You hang on to the single strand of spider web that she allows you to have and hope that she will get better or you will accept her huge imperfection and learn to love an imperfect person perfectly and you can love an imperfect person but she is mentally ill and that is very different. Nick is right she does not love you because she cannot love at all, again research object permanence, they have none and you wont either in the future if you dont get out. I hope she breaks up with you and splits black Matt so you can begin the healing process. I will be here for you when that day comes Matt as will all the bloggers, let us help you, get out Matt.

    Tom

  84. naples104 said

    Save, stick around, we can use the thoughts of a man that is not a victim of a BPD so we realize that we have a sickness too and must watch it very carefully so we dont end up like this again.

    Tom

  85. saveafriend said

    Haha alright Tom. Ill tell you what though, Im a sucker for psychology and am intrigued by all of the elements that have to do with this topic. Its just that I find myself reading the emails im receiving from you guys and steering away from my much needed productivity. I find it encouraging to see that you guys have chosen to fight for your freedom and life and that can be translated to many things. Maybe with time and patience you can teach and show my friend how to do the same. But as for me, Im out, i feel like I am now in an abusive relationship and Mat has developed BPD. hahahah thanks guys. Keep it up.

  86. naples104 said

    save, too funny, i can relate to the lack of productivity when you get going on this blog, be well, hang in there for Matt

    Tom

  87. Ben said

    ToughMat, it’s your choice. No one here will make it for you. As others have pointed out (and you insinuated in your own post), you are addicted to the “feelilngs/emotions” she stirs up inside of you. You’re also addicted to the drama. It’s ok- others on here can relate. I don’t know if this is true for you, but BP’s often end up attracting/dating guys with low self-esteem or introverted personality types. Often, when you’re introverted or quiet and lacking much drama in your life, dating a Borderline will make you feel alive for the first time in awhile. It will evoke feelings you may have never experienced before. Eventually, though, you see through the emotions/feelings and see the relationship for what it is. Loving, caring relationships aren’t based on feelings, emotions, or drama at all. They are based on mutual respect and genuine love for each other. It doesn’t sound like this is what is happening in your relationship. At this point, I don’t have much else to offer. We’ve all been there. It’s tough and not easy to walk away from. Ultimately, I promise that is your best move though.

    Also, just a personal preference: why are you talking to your gf’s therapist? This seems a little unprofessional and over-the-line to me. If you started therapy with your gf or y’all went in together, speaking to her therapist would make some sense. If your gf sought out therapy on her own (or was already in therapy when you met), I would advise to end the communication with her therapist. Find your own therapist who can help you work through the issues you have (and that many of us share as well!).

    • nickheather said

      Save, the way Mat is defending his gf to people is a huge part of it for him. He said in a post recently that his borderline wasn’t as bad as mine or savory’s or Tom’s. well, Tasha never called me names or belittled me the way Mat’s does. With her it was a constant wearing down process. We’d been friends for years, so she knew my history, and that I was called names as a child, so that wasn’t something she ever did, but she did other things that were just as damaging. She’s cunning, and tailors her abuse to the person she’s with. It just sounds like mats gf isn’t nearly as smart. The ultimate goal of a borderline seems to be to get the person so turned around and confused and addicted that they’ll never, ever leave. Even one of Tasha’s best friends recently said to me that Tasha just thought I’d put up with whatever she dished out, and never leave. That’s what’s happening with Mat right now. His gf is lighting hoops on fire, and Mat is dutifully jumping through every one because although it is clear to all of us, and you and everyone in Mat’s life what this woman really is, Mat actually really loves her. She doesn’t love him, but he loves her. I actually really loved Tasha, and could not allow myself to see that she didn’t love me back. It hurt too much to admit that to myself. Mat will continue to love her until it becomes too painful to do anymore. He’s being abused by this woman, but doesn’t see it. It’s a classic scenario, we’re just more used to seeing it with men being the perpetrators, rather than women.
      Save, I know it’s frustrating seeing someone you love go through this, but there are ways for you to not become emotionally invested and not take it personally. If you need distance, take it. When I told my friend Jason about Tasha cheating on me, he freaked out. Yelled at me, cried, demanded to know why I was having anything to do with her, let alone be staying with her. Then he distanced himself. It had been years, and he was tired of my self destruction and the effect that having such a heinous human being was having on my life. It really made me think about the situation. Jason is one of the kindest most living people I know, and he cannot stand Tasha at all. Wants nothing to do with her. I wish I’d listened to him about her years ago. Maybe you taking a step back would help Mat, maybe not…

  88. toughmat said

    Ben, to answer your question about my gf’s therapist, she referred me to her during one of our breakups when we started being friendly again. I went to see her and took a strong liking to her for many reasons. One of which (I think I have mentioned this already) is that she is sort of overseeing my gf’s healing process so it is like talking to the rational mind of my gf or her potential. I am sure it gives the experience more power in my mind. For awhile my gf forbid me from seeing the therapist which i told the therapist. The therapist has always supported me to my gf even when my gf split me black, if you will. I have seen the therapist and communicate to her when things go sour, which lately has been an awful lot. I hope that answers your question.

    Nick, you raise great points. I realize I am still so confused…I feel like i have all of the logic, but maybe it is the emotion that doesnt allow to see the total truth. Frankly, it feels like I will never be able to see her and the relationship for what it is and I will always be uncertain. I look back on so many great moments when she is super cool, and then the times when she is being incredibly difficult and i just go nuts. The points you made about her being intelligent in attacking certain aspects of my character or my areas where she knows are soft spots is interesting. I have expressed how i feel bad I am not able to support her more financially other than meals and some small things and she has used that to get to me such as bringing up me not helping with the dog to get under my skin. On the other hand, as you said about Tasha, my gf knows there are certain places not to go and she usually does a good job protecting that, at least when we are together. When things get really bad and it looks like Im not going back, she has brought them up.

    Yesterday I told my gf “Sticks and stones will break your bones and words will be taken at face value no matter if you have ptsd or how much sympathy i have for your troubled past. I am rattled and will not be communicating today or until i can find my peace of mind. Going back and forth with someone I care about who is putting me down is not loving to myself or to that person, you.” I have not written since and I am trying to take my space although i dont know what is going to happen.

    I bought the book Stop Walking On Eggshells. It is fantastic. it explains how even manipulation is not something the bps do to hurt us, it is the only way they know how to get their needs met. And when they feel such fear of abandonment and imagine cheating and feeling last, everything else goes out of the window. Has anyone else read it?

    As far as me getting attention from this blog..Yes, it is serving as something I look forward to…coming to this blog and seeing people trying to help me with advice. I am playing the victim in this and like Nick said, it is easy to play that role and keep acting dumbfounded when shit goes down in my relationship that seems mind boggling and takes over my life. As Nick and Tom said, I hope sharing my stories will show them what they broke free from and i like hearing other stories. I must say when i hear things like your exes cheating it immediately makes me want to defend my gf. It is not my intention to stay in the relationship so I can complain about it for attention. I think As I exclaim that i am being the victim. I guess the only way to not be the victim is to walk. Or, to stay and not complain about what i am choosing to stay in…

  89. Ben said

    ToughMat, yes, if you choose to stay, you have no right to complain. I do applaud your girlfriend if she is truly trying to seek help and go through long-term DBT therapy. That is truly the only way people living with BPD see improvement. You should know that there is no guarantee that she will improve- not everyone who goes through DBT sees improvement. Most do, plenty don’t. The early they get started, the better.

    The choice is yours, and one only you can make it. It’s a long road, with no guarantee that her therapy will take hold and work. I think the big thing you need to figure out is whether this relationship is truly founded in “love” or just feelings/emotions/hot physical action. No amount of sex or feelings is worth being unhappy and treated like crap (in my opinion at least). No amount of emotions and “feeling alive” is worth the guilt, abuse, and messing with your sanity that a relationship with a BPD sufferer can entail. Good luck!

  90. naples104 said

    Ben is so right, my advice is take a break, no contact for a while and see what is the foundation for this relationship, is it love or codependent need. It sounds like the latter and you cannot tell that until you take a break. I would not speak to her analyst, you will develop a false sense of hope and discuss her progress with her and may derail the DPT process. The basis of DPT therapy is not to identify BPD in the early statges of treatement. Matt, you are in the vortex of mental illness and it has affected your ability to make sound decisions on your own mental well being. I know, I was there. Your choice to stay has no consequences with me or it seems with all of the bloggers in here, you will receive our help, but you may receive our criticisim as well. You are your own worst enemy at this point. Your analysis of this situtaion is 100% reflective of what ever the pleasure of this relationship has provided and not the blended experience of pain and control that you have written about so mnay times.

    Tom

  91. toughmat said

    Ben, Tom, thanks. Her therapist is not doing DBT to my understanding. The thought process is that she has ptsd from traumatic events in the past and the healing is around that. You raise a great point about talking to her therapist keeping me hooked. As I mentioned, I feel like it is a way to possibly stay with her if she gets the help she needs and i can reveal truths that would probably never get realized with my gf speaking for herself only.

    I received communication from her yesterday…ill spare the specific details that i am always compelled to write but it was basically her first asking if I would be showing up to where she would watch the UFC fights as I did once in the past (the occasion where I was accused of stalking even though I told her I wanted to say hi ahead of time, she said no so I decided to wait for her to leave..long story but I lost my mind a bit and did cross boundaries at a time when I was trying to move on but couldnt). I responded that I would be loving her from a safe distance for her sake and mine. She wrote back some very heartfelt stuff about how she loves me and how she thought we were going to work on ourselves together. How she is afraid to lose me and is putting her pride aside. I just kept my texts brief and said that I am very confused right now about everything, confused about myself and who i really am, but I do love her.

    Tom, you are right, today is a perfect example when I am having lots of euphoric recall. But I am trying to remember the bs moments over the last few years as well. Last night I felt pretty free….no eggshells, but it is easier when we are communicating in that I feel like I still have her. Today sucks so far. As much as it hurts today, I am just going to shift focus on working on myself and giving myself time. But at least for today, Im not going back…no promises I never will, and believe me, the criticism from everyone else only pails in comparison to the self criticism….although i will of be justifying it as well. A good friend once said, “eventually, it will all come out right in the wash”. I hope he is right.

    How about Stop Walking On Eggshells?

  92. naples104 said

    Matt, that is a great book and from knowledge comes courage and then the healing and personal changes that we must make to be free of the confines unhealthy co dependence. Be strong and read about the benefits of no contact, its like withdrawing from a drug, hard at first and then it becomes the drug of choice. Euphoric recall is very hard to overcome, make a list of all the bad shit and keep it with you at all times and add to it as you have these feelings, it is very helpful, go help someone, volunteer, do something for someone other than for her her and fulfill your co dependent need with another outlet.

    Tom

    • nickheather said

      Here’s the list I wrote out so I wouldn’t go back to Tasha. I started writing it after she showed up at my house trying to get me to take her back. I referred to it every time I began to think fondly of her. It worked. Mat, you might want to try it, it’s very helpful.

      Remember

      Remember when she dumped you for Forbes last year? Do you remember how phenomenally painful that was? What did it feel like? Remember that first night? Lying in your bed, literally crazy with grief? Remember how hard it was to go on? Your mom had to come and help out. That’s how fucking awful it was. So excruciating there aren’t really words that can describe it. Remember her contacting you and then lying to you about sleeping with him? Remember when you found out!? Remember that feeling like you had been kicked hard in the gut? Remember waking up and that being the first feeling you had, and the first thing on your mind EVERY TIME YOU WOKE UP FOR MONTHS!??? Remember thinking of it every time you had sex with her. Visualizing it? Remember how YOU had to get rid of the pictures and videos of their time together because she kept giving you lame excuses about being too busy and how she wore those shoes to your house? Remember how she started in about TMV right away and actually had the fucking BALLS to get mad at you when you were at your lowest point!? Remember her saying at the buck 65 show, after we lost him in the crowd “I JUST WANT IT TO BE ABOUT ME HANGING OUT WITH THEM!!!” Remember how she denied saying it afterwards? Remember how she had to desperately chase him around the city? Do you remember how sorry you felt for her in that moment, and how pathetic she was, and how sadly shallow? Remember? Remember how completely disinterested she was in your wonderful beautiful children when you made hers a priority? Remember how she slapped your 3 year old son across the face!!!? Remember that!!!!!!? What the FUCK were you ever thinking!!!!!? SHE HIT A THREE YEAR OLD ACROSS THE FACE!!!! Your son. You should have ended that shit right there.
      Remember how she didn’t stand up for you when she said she would with her mother? Remember when she left you on the side of the road in ladysmith so she could go to his party? Remember how good you felt. How completely trusting you were for the FIRST TIME? Remember how she picked you up almost an hour late looking flushed and excited? Remember how she kissed him, but always said “he kissed me”? Remember asking her who she’d choose if both you and forbes were standing in front of you? Remember hearing “I don’t know”!? Remember how much that hurt? Remember her chasing you into the terminal and crying and trying to reason with you? Remember her calling you and begging to be forgiven? Remember her moving in, and even putting Frankie in school, and how amazingly happy you felt? Remember coming home from a hard day of work and bending down to Frankie and happily asking “hey Frankie, you wanna go down to the beach?”?
      Remember Frankie looking up at you and saying “I can’t, we’re moving back to nanaimo”? Remember looking over at Tasha and seeing her apologetic look? Remember her tearfully looking at you and nodding? Remember how horrible that felt? Remember her calling you that night and, once again, pleading to be taken back? Remember taking her back? Remember the time you came all the way to nanaimo so you could watch her kids so she could go to a party with her friends? Remember having that dream that she was flirting with a tall dark curly haired guy? Remember asking her about it and her confirming it and that she got his phone number? Remember that!? Remember going to magi about the Forbes issue, it being agreed that the friendship was innappropriate, and that she needed to get rid of him? Remember how she called you up a couple of months later and said “Forbes really wants to take me and the kids skating, is that ok with you?”…!!!!!!? REMEMBER THAT NICK!? Remember when you’d finally had enough and broke up with her and felt strong and how she called you up crying at three am promising you the world and everything you’d wanted and then a month later she pulled the rug out from under you? Remember all the other times she was going to move in and found one excuse or another to back out!? Remember how phenomenally selfish, childish, cruel, and mean she’s been to you? Remember how you went to beyond blame because, apparently, being angry about all the above treatment was inappropriate!!!!!!!!!!?????? Remember how she lies and cheats and has done it to other men as well? Remember how she lied her ass off about fucking forbes when you first asked her about it? Remember how you realized after hours of talking that she’d actually slept with him BEFORE you broke up? Remember leaving her house and vowing to never go back!? Remember the last year and a half of your life!!!!!?????
      Remember explaining her heinous behavior and treatment of you to all your close friends and family and the pitying looks on their faces as you tried in vain to justify her being a callous bitch? Remember how she showed up at your house last week and DIDN’T GIVE A SHIT about how it would affect you, but obviously only cared about herself. Again.? Remember that she’s materialistic as all fuck and won’t stop emailing about what she wants from you, EVEN YOUR STUFF!!!? Remember how if you just wanted to stay home, she’d call and keep you on the phone for hours, and then say how horny she was to try to get you over there? Remember how she used sex to say “sorry” for being such a manipulator in the rest of the relationship? Remember all the times she showed at your house and COMPLETELY ignored your children and seduced you so you’d pay attention to her? Remember how she constantly needed reassurance of her beauty and how vain and shallow it was? Remember when she allowed her mother to dictate that you couldn’t come for Xmas at her aunts house in Vancouver and she went anyway and how you got the ferry all the way over and how she didn’t seem to care at all while you rode the ferry back alone while getting the flu, and she was already setting you up for a broken heart by secretly contacting Forbes!!!!? Remember how she fucked him!? Remember how she accused your three and four year old sons of being able to sexually abuse her daughter? Remember how NO ONE who loves me is at all sad that I’m done with her? Not. One. Single. Person.? Remember how Jason, one of the kindest, most loving people you know, reacted when you told him about her and f? Remember how she didn’t love you because if she had ANY IDEA what love was, all of the memories you just wrote out would NEVER have happened? Remember how cold and cruel her treatment of Brian was and had been? Remember how cold and cruel her mother is? Remember that lying and cheating runs in her family? Remember how elisa chronically cheated on Jesse, both before and after her wedding, and eventually left him, taking his daughter with her, for an old friend? Remember how familiar that sounds? Remember how she told you to talk to whoever you needed to about her affair, but when you did was only concerned with herself, and her own reputation? Remember how when you broke up with her she put it all over Facebook immediately and got all sorts of sympathy? Remember how when she dumped you last year you DIDN’T put it all over facebook even though you could’ve and you knew she was fucking Forbes? Remember how you’d drop everything to help her out of yet another crisis, and she never offered to, or helped when you needed it? Remember how incredibly narcissistic her mother is and how much like her mother she is? Remember how you don’t want to be with her AT ALL anymore!? Remember how insecure you felt around her and that you couldn’t be yourself, a fact that all your friends have pointed out too? Remember how insecure she was about Margo because Margo is actually a much nicer person, so she had good reason to be insecure? Remember how QUICKLY SHE MOVED ON LAST YEAR!? Remember the letter she wrote to Forbes telling him how much she appreciated and loved him, and how SHE NEVER DID THAT FOR YOU!!!!????? Remember that she doesn’t know what love is at all? Remember how she dumped you flat on your ass in November of 2011, because she prioritized Forbes over you yet again and how when she got back together with you she made sure he still came first to the point that she dumped you again 2 months later and took off and fucked him? Remember that she’s still trying to hook you in and she’s using the kids to do it, yours and hers, and it’s been almost a month since you broke up and she promised after showing up unannounced and uninvited last Thursday that she’d NEVER contact you again but has contacted you twice since? Remember that she had zero respect for boundaries of any kind and only works even harder to push against and disregard them?

      Remember that you gave her chance after chance to change and prove herself, and in the end she turned out to be just as treacherous as she was a year and a half ago.

      Remember all of this. These things really happened. You are not imagining these things. This is the way you were treated in this relationship. This is who she is. Not the illusion you’ve created to make her more palatable. Lori, for instance, hasn’t done ONE of these things to Craig in all the thirteen years they’ve been together. Not one. You want a woman like Lori, NOT one like Tasha/Vanessa/Linda…

      Remember that it’s only been three months since you broke up,and she’s had a new boyfriend for almost a month now? Remember how she forwarded those emails from Brian about her being on plenty of fish, and how cruel and toxic that was after what she did to you last year? Remember that she’s a self serving narcissist and that just because she’s with someone else – already – doesn’t mean she’s figured anything out. She hasn’t changed one iota. She’s still the same crazy bitch she was three months ago, she just has a clean slate so she can begin the cycle anew. Remember that although you’re going though all this hurt, it will end, and you’ll be glad you’re rid of her.

  93. toughmat said

    Nick thanks for posting all of that. I read it. I am not “just defending my” gf (current ex) by saying this, but the treatment you received is far worse than mine. So, Im very sorry you had to go through all of that and congratulations on moving on.

    My gf gives me a hard time with her extreme jealousy and insecurity to the point where I walk on eggshells because I dont want to upset her. It can be a glance at another female real or imagined, a night out with my friends, not texting enough, or whatever but the accusations that i put her last and dont share enough are the main issue. And her rages of course when she gets really upset.

    As I said she did hang out with her ex during two of our breakups but she is tells me what happened which is how I know. I have caught her in one white lie. It was actually before I started dating her she was attracted to Saveafriend and she asked a mutual friend female friend about him. The mutual friend let it out and my gf denies it to this day. Who knows, but the mutual friend has zero reason to make that up.

    Nick, there are plenty of shitty moments to write down, just not ones where she is so low about actively involving other men in front of me like that. She acts out when she feels neglected or threatened. She withdraws to love test and get attention. Im not justifying, I am just stating that there is a difference in the severity of the treatment.

    • nickheather said

      Remember

      Remember when she dumped you for Forbes last year? Do you remember how phenomenally painful that was? What did it feel like? Remember that first night? Lying in your bed, literally crazy with grief? Remember how hard it was to go on? Your mom had to come and help out. That’s how fucking awful it was. So excruciating there aren’t really words that can describe it. Remember her contacting you and then lying to you about sleeping with him? Remember when you found out!? Remember that feeling like you had been kicked hard in the gut? Remember waking up and that being the first feeling you had, and the first thing on your mind EVERY TIME YOU WOKE UP FOR MONTHS!??? Remember thinking of it every time you had sex with her. Visualizing it? Remember how YOU had to get rid of the pictures and videos of their time together because she kept giving you lame excuses about being too busy and how she wore those shoes to your house? Remember how she started in about TMV right away and actually had the fucking BALLS to get mad at you when you were at your lowest point!? Remember her saying at the buck 65 show, after we lost him in the crowd “I JUST WANT IT TO BE ABOUT ME HANGING OUT WITH THEM!!!” Remember how she denied saying it afterwards? Remember how she had to desperately chase him around the city? Do you remember how sorry you felt for her in that moment, and how pathetic she was, and how sadly shallow? Remember? Remember how completely disinterested she was in your wonderful beautiful children when you made hers a priority? Remember how she slapped your 3 year old son across the face!!!? Remember that!!!!!!? What the FUCK were you ever thinking!!!!!? SHE HIT A THREE YEAR OLD ACROSS THE FACE!!!! Your son. You should have ended that shit right there.
      Remember how she didn’t stand up for you when she said she would with her mother? Remember when she left you on the side of the road in ladysmith so she could go to his party? Remember how good you felt. How completely trusting you were for the FIRST TIME? Remember how she picked you up almost an hour late looking flushed and excited? Remember how she kissed him, but always said “he kissed me”? Remember asking her who she’d choose if both you and forbes were standing in front of you? Remember hearing “I don’t know”!? Remember how much that hurt? Remember her chasing you into the terminal and crying and trying to reason with you? Remember her calling you and begging to be forgiven? Remember her moving in, and even putting Frankie in school, and how amazingly happy you felt? Remember coming home from a hard day of work and bending down to Frankie and happily asking “hey Frankie, you wanna go down to the beach?”?
      Remember Frankie looking up at you and saying “I can’t, we’re moving back to nanaimo”? Remember looking over at Tasha and seeing her apologetic look? Remember her tearfully looking at you and nodding? Remember how horrible that felt? Remember her calling you that night and, once again, pleading to be taken back? Remember taking her back? Remember the time you came all the way to nanaimo so you could watch her kids so she could go to a party with her friends? Remember having that dream that she was flirting with a tall dark curly haired guy? Remember asking her about it and her confirming it and that she got his phone number? Remember that!? Remember going to magi about the Forbes issue, it being agreed that the friendship was innappropriate, and that she needed to get rid of him? Remember how she called you up a couple of months later and said “Forbes really wants to take me and the kids skating, is that ok with you?”…!!!!!!? REMEMBER THAT NICK!? Remember when you’d finally had enough and broke up with her and felt strong and how she called you up crying at three am promising you the world and everything you’d wanted and then a month later she pulled the rug out from under you? Remember all the other times she was going to move in and found one excuse or another to back out!? Remember how phenomenally selfish, childish, cruel, and mean she’s been to you? Remember how you went to beyond blame because, apparently, being angry about all the above treatment was inappropriate!!!!!!!!!!?????? Remember how she lies and cheats and has done it to other men as well? Remember how she lied her ass off about fucking forbes when you first asked her about it? Remember how you realized after hours of talking that she’d actually slept with him BEFORE you broke up? Remember leaving her house and vowing to never go back!? Remember the last year and a half of your life!!!!!?????
      Remember explaining her heinous behavior and treatment of you to all your close friends and family and the pitying looks on their faces as you tried in vain to justify her being a callous bitch? Remember how she showed up at your house last week and DIDN’T GIVE A SHIT about how it would affect you, but obviously only cared about herself. Again.? Remember that she’s materialistic as all fuck and won’t stop emailing about what she wants from you, EVEN YOUR STUFF!!!? Remember how if you just wanted to stay home, she’d call and keep you on the phone for hours, and then say how horny she was to try to get you over there? Remember how she used sex to say “sorry” for being such a manipulator in the rest of the relationship? Remember all the times she showed at your house and COMPLETELY ignored your children and seduced you so you’d pay attention to her? Remember how she constantly needed reassurance of her beauty and how vain and shallow it was? Remember when she allowed her mother to dictate that you couldn’t come for Xmas at her aunts house in Vancouver and she went anyway and how you got the ferry all the way over and how she didn’t seem to care at all while you rode the ferry back alone while getting the flu, and she was already setting you up for a broken heart by secretly contacting Forbes!!!!? Remember how she fucked him!? Remember how she accused your three and four year old sons of being able to sexually abuse her daughter? Remember how NO ONE who loves me is at all sad that I’m done with her? Not. One. Single. Person.? Remember how Jason, one of the kindest, most loving people you know, reacted when you told him about her and f? Remember how she didn’t love you because if she had ANY IDEA what love was, all of the memories you just wrote out would NEVER have happened? Remember how cold and cruel her treatment of Brian was and had been? Remember how cold and cruel her mother is? Remember that lying and cheating runs in her family? Remember how elisa chronically cheated on Jesse, both before and after her wedding, and eventually left him, taking his daughter with her, for an old friend? Remember how familiar that sounds? Remember how she told you to talk to whoever you needed to about her affair, but when you did was only concerned with herself, and her own reputation? Remember how when you broke up with her she put it all over Facebook immediately and got all sorts of sympathy? Remember how when she dumped you last year you DIDN’T put it all over facebook even though you could’ve and you knew she was fucking Forbes? Remember how you’d drop everything to help her out of yet another crisis, and she never offered to, or helped when you needed it? Remember how incredibly narcissistic her mother is and how much like her mother she is? Remember how you don’t want to be with her AT ALL anymore!? Remember how insecure you felt around her and that you couldn’t be yourself, a fact that all your friends have pointed out too? Remember how insecure she was about Margo because Margo is actually a much nicer person, so she had good reason to be insecure? Remember how QUICKLY SHE MOVED ON LAST YEAR!? Remember the letter she wrote to Forbes telling him how much she appreciated and loved him, and how SHE NEVER DID THAT FOR YOU!!!!????? Remember that she doesn’t know what love is at all? Remember how she dumped you flat on your ass in November of 2011, because she prioritized Forbes over you yet again and how when she got back together with you she made sure he still came first to the point that she dumped you again 2 months later and took off and fucked him? Remember that she’s still trying to hook you in and she’s using the kids to do it, yours and hers, and it’s been almost a month since you broke up and she promised after showing up unannounced and uninvited last Thursday that she’d NEVER contact you again but has contacted you twice since? Remember that she had zero respect for boundaries of any kind and only works even harder to push against and disregard them?

      Remember that you gave her chance after chance to change and prove herself, and in the end she turned out to be just as treacherous as she was a year and a half ago.

      Remember all of this. These things really happened. You are not imagining these things. This is the way you were treated in this relationship. This is who she is. Not the illusion you’ve created to make her more palatable. Lori, for instance, hasn’t done ONE of these things to Craig in all the thirteen years they’ve been together. Not one. You want a woman like Lori, NOT one like Tasha/Vanessa/Linda…

      Remember that it’s only been three months since you broke up,and she’s had a new boyfriend for almost a month now? Remember how she forwarded those emails from Brian about her being on plenty of fish, and how cruel and toxic that was after what she did to you last year? Remember that she’s a self serving narcissist and that just because she’s with someone else – already – doesn’t mean she’s figured anything out. She hasn’t changed one iota. She’s still the same crazy bitch she was three months ago, she just has a clean slate so she can begin the cycle anew. Remember that although you’re going though all this hurt, it will end, and you’ll be glad you’re rid of her.

    • nickheather said

      Ok Mat, If you want to believe that she’s telling you the truth about the time she spent with her ex when you were broken up, that’s your choice. I believed all Tasha’s lies as well. All of them. I mean, why would anyone EVER lie about the things she lied about? What would be the point? The point is that they will say WHATEVER is necessary to keep you hooked. The point is NEVER to be a loving, honest, upstanding human being. EVER. the point is to do whatever it takes to ensure their supply of attention. It’s not about us, it’s always about them. I can soundly assure you that if you were to dump her tomorrow, she’d have someone else up her in no time at all, don’t kid yourself. You’ve convinced yourself that she “loves” you. She does not. She has no clue what love is. Love is not restrictive and cloying. Love is not desperate, nor is it jealous or insecure. You are being pulled, inch by inch, into her tragic, pathetic, putrid world, and the sad thing is, you’re going willingly. Coming from my perspective, it’s like watching a slow motion disaster. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, around you can see what you can’t. She has her therapist convinced she’s something other than she is. Tasha did that too. I watched her twist and lie right in front of me. And when she couldn’t do it because she knew I’d catch her out, she just didn’t say anything at all. It was bizarre to watch. Tasha has NEVER been interested in changing. She’s only interested in making it appear she’s changing so she can convince others she’s really just this poor soul doing her best. She has no soul. She’s a callous, cold, manipulative, calculating, liar, and so is your gf, but she’s done a masterful job of convincing you that she’s something other than she is, and that you’re something other than you are.
      Here’s what’s eventually going to happen: you’re going to slowly lose everything that’s important to you because of this woman. You’ll change so much, and become so unrecognizable to your friends and family that they’ll slowly drift away. All you’ll have left is this horrific wreck of a woman, and once she’s gutted you completely and there’s nothing left of you, she’ll move on. You should see Tasha’s last ex. He’s NEVER recovered from his relationship with her. It’s incredibly sad to see. You say your gf isn’t as bad as Tasha? That’s ONLY because she hasn’t got there. Yet. You’re living in her twisted fantasy with her my friend, and there is no happy ending to this story. Your heart WILL be broken. You WILL suffer the worst pain you’ve ever felt in your life when she finally rejects you and splits you black.
      Doesn’t it tell you something that she denies being attracted to saveafriend to this day? Your mutual friend has no reason to make this up you say? And if it was before she met you, why does it matter? I’ll tell you why: like Tasha, your gf is a pathological liar. If she’s going to lie about something as innocuous, and normal (to SANE people) as an attraction BEFORE she met you, what else do you think she might be lying about? You have your head so far up your ass, you’re kissing your own tonsils. Seriously dude. Your friend cares enough about you to get on this blog and try and figure out how to help you, and you’d rather stay hopelessly addicted to the future of your broken heart. Obviously I feel passionate about this subject as I’ve just gone through EXACTLY what you’re going through, and I wish I’d woken up years ago. Not only did I have to let her go, I had to let her kids go too, which is its own special kind of heartbreak.
      Mat, there are good, loving women out there. As long as you waste your time with this one, you’ll close yourself off to all possibilities of real love. Just start by seeing her for who she really is. One step at a time. She may be lying to you, but you don’t have to join her. Start loving yourself by telling yourself the truth.

      I’m not sure why my posts keep repeating. Sorry.

      • toughmat said

        Nick your passion is awesome yet frightening because i dont even want to believe my girl who always preached honesty wad a liar. maybe her always doing that and trying to figure out some of my truth and punishing me for it was projection. idk. I ws so skeptical at one time i read her fb (admitted it to her later) and saw her honesty being proven by telling a. couple guys about me…one how happy she is wiyh me and it feels healthy and another who was pursuing het to please stop contact becquse she is loyal to me. So this is all confusing. if she is that huge liar then leqving is a no brainer.

  94. Ben said

    ToughMat, it is very confusing and difficult. If it was easy, or if your relationship were an easy one, you wouldn’t have to be on this blog. If the story you’re telling is true, you have all the information before. Again, you have to be the one to choose how to proceed with your relationship. Everyone here has been there before- we understand it is tough. I think most of us are genuinely trying to just offer perspectives on the way things turned out for us. And yes, we can be a passionate group about this, because these relationships have caused us much harm.

    If her facebook messages genuinely spoke well of you, that’s great. Maybe she isn’t cheating. Not everyone with BPD cheats (though it is a fairly common practice among BP’s). That doesn’t discount the fact that she lied to you about her previous attraction to your friend. I think the biggest issue, again, is for you to figure out if this is how you want your life to be.

  95. saveafriend said

    Hey Guys – To Mats girlfriends defense Saveafriend is extremely good looking so its obvious she thought he was good looking. πŸ˜‰ Just kidding. However I do remember that Halloween night when we all got drunk and I passed out on Jeffs couch and Delphine came on to the couch and cuddled and was trying to touch me and stuff. Everyone especially me was like what the fuck, this chicks crazy. I remember EVERYONE saying Red Flag Red Flag, run the other way. It was evident from the very first day. Look, as for whether or not she lied to “Amy” (the mutual friend) about wanting to hook up with me or whatever it was does not matter one bit. She probably thought I was attractive, before Mat and her got serious, and then developed a hatred for me as she tries to isolate him from everyone so now is disgusted and embarrassed of the thought of hooking up with me so made up a story. Totally fine and understandable. But Nick you were pretty spot on about the stuff you so passionately expressed. Mat cant see all that because he is blinded by her manipulation. And the truth is she probably dosent even know she is doing it. Meaning its probably an involuntary action or personality. Thats were all the confusion comes in. Unfortunately by Nicks passionate response, Mat is caught up with defending her that it wasn’t THAT bad rather than admitting that it was bad enough. Bad enough to be in the mental position he is in today.

    Nick I do like the competition between whos a bigger bitch, Tasha or Delphine. The results are in. Tied for 1st is Tasha and Helphine, 2nd place is the Devil, while the Grim Reaper finished in 3rd.

    I applaud all of you for getting out of your unfortunate situation and choosing life. Who knows, maybe Mat will too. We just arrived in Vegas and Im with one of Mats other best friends. Were going to take our chances with some intelligent, classy, mentally sane Vegas girls. I sure hope BPD and PTSD isnt contagious. Come thru fellow bloggers, comped rooms on Save !!!

  96. naples104 said

    Nick, the anger and revenge aspect of a BPD are closely aligned. When they are not in control and my Debi is very ill, they seek revenge and the ultimate revenge aside from killing you, which does not serve their purpose because they want you around to control and abuse, is to ruin you. A BPD has no choice but to eventual hate you. You as a mentally healthy person grow close and want a high level of intimacy and they fear abandonment and intimacy the most. It is losing scenario from the hello.

    Tom

  97. toughmat said

    Funny Save. Nick, Tom, Ben, it seems as though there are a lot of similarities between your women…the cheating, blatant lying, suicidal threats (?) and overall being a not very good person to you.

    I discussed with my therapist (we always do but I really wanted to get clear) and there are definitely borderline traits at play even though there is not the blatantly lying, cheating, self harm, suicidal threats. The blaming, accusations, fear of abandonment, and the lens through which she sees certain things are all bpd sounding he says. The use of the words ALWAYS and NEVER. The demands to never look or think of other women and the issues that has created. the emotional shifts, especially during fights where I am hated, then she expresses her fear of losing me….like the famous book, I Hate You, Dont Leave Me….just like that.

    On the upside, she has taken responsibility a lot of the times, mostly for her anger and rages. She does admit to knowing she has a long way to go in therapy and with her insecurity. As you have all said, maybe she is just saying that stuff since it does seem to go out the door so often. she can show great awareness and self reflection and then its like it was never there and I am the culprit for all things bad in her world.

    I am still taking my time away, and it is not easy. I still feel deep down I am going to go back again. I am sorry to say that, but I just want to be upfront about how I feel. I was thinking about what SD says about finding meaning in my own life…..and while I love coaching and psychology, and the idea of traveling, and my friends, I dont know what to do with myself. I feel like I am abandoning her. Abandoning meaning. Giving up on someone I love.

  98. naples104 said

    Matt, no one here, I dont think, will judge you for your decisions, I know I will not. Wanting her back or going back is all a part of it, the codependent pathology that lies within you. I had it and still have it, but I control it better than before. We have all said it to you because we all had to face it in ourselves, you cannot fix you while involved with the object that you are saving and fixing. You are slowly abandoning your self by staying with a BPD, but that is your choice. All we can do is tell you the truth as we experienced it, fix you first, make yourself the highest priority in your life and discover what you want from your life. I assure you it is not the push pull of a relationship with a BPD.

    Tom

    • nickheather said

      Yeah Mat, Tasha assured me over and over again that she was incapable of lying. Even after lying to my face for almost a month straight, she STILL tried to convince me she was incapable of lying! Looking back, all she did was lie, all the while telling me she was incapable of doing so. It takes a spectacularly twisted fuck to pull that off, and a complete ass to fall for it over and over again. It’s irrelevant anyway, because there will come a point with Delphine where she just won’t be able to tolerate her pain anymore and, sorry to say, she sees you as the source of that pain: you will be split black. Then you’ll know pain. That’s what happened to Brian, Tasha’s victim before me. He had his whole life ripped away from him in the blink of an eye. She made his life a living breathing hell, and then when he’d been reduced to her level of crazy, she took his kids, accused him of sexual and physical abuse, and has been trying (with her witch mothers help) to destroy what’s left of him, ever since. What exactly do you think is going to happen if you ever, god forbid, reproduce with this woman? Do you want your children subjected to her crazy? Can you imagine how badly it would hurt to watch your children be treated the way she treats you? One of the reasons I stayed with Tasha so long was because of her son. She’s doing to her daughter what was done to her as a child, just in a different way. Actually, she’s doing to her daughter what her mother did to Tasha’s sister, Elisa, who is even worse than Tasha, which is saying a LOT. Mat, trust me, you want to seriously sit down and think about your future with this woman.
      I was at dinner with friends last night and we got onto the subject of crazy exes, and worse relationships. We all agreed that the hardest people to break up with are the crazy ones. They suck you into a world that exists within them only. It’s not based on real life events. Delphine has a completely distorted reality. She lives in an illusion, and you’re half living in it, and reinforcing it by playing her game. I left Tasha’s crazy world where she lies and cheats, but somehow I end up the one not trusted…!? That is insane, and it’s only a matter of time before Delphine does the same (I strongly suspect that she already has, but hasn’t been honest with you about it). I got off topic, but the conclusion we all came to last night was that we were all thankful for our crazy relationships because they taught us so much, and we were even more thankful that they were over. There was one guy who was a bit of a hero to me. He’s 30, been with a wonderful woman for five years now, but the woman before was a Tasha. It was like listening to my relationship coming out of someone else’s mouth. He said after that he stayed away from women for a couple of years. Just worked, hung out with friends, advanced himself scholastically. He said it was the best thing he ever did for himself, and when he met his wife, he was not at all looking for it. And I’ve heard tons of great relationship stories that started out that way. The bad ones are ones that start when people are actively seeking, or worse, rebounding. It’s at those times when we make our biggest mistakes. We’re needy and vulnerable, which is never a good place to start a new relationship. I wonder what state you were in when you met Delphine?

  99. naples104 said

    Nick you are right we should be thankful for the crazies, they helped us get sane. I think you can meet someone when you are looking. I have been on dating sites on and off for a few years and I met a wonderful woman that we hit it off on the phone and it was reinforced on that the first date which has now turned into a nice loving relationship. We are both very needy emotionally and affectionate, we live apart and spend a great deal of time together. The biggest push for me to let go of my BPD was dating. It restored my self esteem and I finally realized that I was worthy of a normal women. That combined with therapy with an excellent therapist that only treats cluster B and it’s victims changed what I look for in a relationship and a woman. I would always gravitate to a woman that needed to be saved, now I am with a woman that is an executive, successful and does not need my money or anything other than my love. A year ago I would have been intimidated by her. Now I see her and all women like her as my peers, when I met Debi, she was living in a rented room and made 10 dollars an hour and she was perfect, I could pick her up and support her. I needed that then and now I cannot believe I was like that. For me, dating has been a huge part of my recovery. I dated about 50 women, most of them one time, no chemistry and when I felt that spark so did she. I believe that when you are receptive and mentally healthy irrespective of vulnerable, I am always vulnerable because I would rather be a couple as opposed to single, you can connect and find peace with a woman. When you are conflicted and not mentally healthy you are most likely to make a bad decision.

    Tom

    • nickheather said

      What I’m saying is that I no longer feel the “need” to be in a relationship, and that’s a first for me. Of course I too enjoy being in a relationship, but only if its going to be a life affirming one. But I have to say that there’s something different about the folks I talk to who weren’t looking for a relationship when they got into one. I honestly and thoroughly believe that if you’re looking for someone to love, there’s an element to it that I’m no longer interested in, personally. I’m not saying going on dating sites is wrong for everyone, or that actively looking is either, but I seem to have reached a point where I’m not interested in seeking out a relationship. I’d rather put that energy elsewhere. No matter who you’re with, relationships require compromise and work to some degree, and I’m just not interested in doing that right now. It seems boring to me. Based on my reading, research, and conversations, it seems that the best relationships come out of the blue, unexpected, and without preconceptions when folks are perfectly happy on their own. I’m not saying that if I met someone spectacular I would run, I’m just not going to try to force anything. The bliss I’ve been experiencing lately is so far beyond anything I’ve experienced in a relationship that I’m just not willing to alter the course I’m on, so I can be validated by another person. I don’t need validation by anyone but me, and I think that is THE key to a great relationship, quite frankly. All I have to do is look at my own past, and the vast majority of the relationships around me to see the silliness of the whole thing. I we take it so seriously, and get sucked into the drama of it, and it’s really actually quite simple. Love with your actions with no expectations. That’s it. And when you do that, you’ll attract someone who does the same. I’m just not far enough along yet, and I know that about myself. I trust that when I am far enough along, I’ll open myself up to a new relationship. Until then, I’m ecstatic to be on my own!

  100. naples104 said

    Nick, I am happy you are in that spot. I am happy alone too but I also think I am older than you, I am 58. Its funny, when I was younger I wanted to be 100% single no attachments, casual sex once in a while, now I find myself wanting a bond with a quality woman. Their is always compromise when in a relationship and you have to be accepting of that and expecting of it. I am an older dad, I have 12 year old twins and the woman I am involved with has children of similar age, so the family aspect is very appealing to me. Since she does not need me financially I have been very open to seeing where this goes. I agree that you have to love your self and where you are emotionally before you can enjoy a relationship. We are all different and look for our own personal slice of heaven, but united here on this site to helping one another escape the chains of being with a BPD. I appreciate all of the input i read on this site, thanks Nick.

    Tom

  101. toughmat said

    Nick, thank you for your direct messages and sounds like you are loving the single life. Tom, I am happy you found someone you have a healthy relationship with. Ben, you sound like a smart guy with a good head on his shoulders.

    Quick update: yesterday she sent some nice texts about her cat being put down and I just responded nicely. then later she sent a text saying basically that if I loved her I wouldnt let her slip away even when things got difficult. I stood firm that I need time for myself right now and that Im sorry she feels “last” and that if I am not good myself then I can never be good with her. She then went into her fit about how I shouldnt expect to get her back when Im ready and she promised she wont be around if i decide to make it work again. I told her Im sorry she feels that way and she just kept telling me that the door is closing and the key is turning, in other words, threatening me that she wont be around. I told her she can threaten me all she wants but I am doing what I need to do for me and Im sorry it hurts her. she says “nice “knowin” ya”. Then “dont ever contact me again.” Then “i said I was afraid to lose you, but now that I lost you, Im no longer afraid”.

    At first I was taking her seriously but then I rememeberd all of the other times she says this stuff. Its never fun to hear though. I am not trying to string her along, but I do need some time for myself to see about that void of mine. To see what life is like without my addiction to her. I dont know how long I will be able to last.

  102. naples104 said

    Matt, hang in there, you are entering the hardest part, the withdrawl and the threats of a BPD. be strong, talk to friends, come here and write and read, you are making all the right moves. Your life will be so much better when you break free and realize that you have been going through hell and you dont want to go back to it. Took a few months for me to be strong and resist and have no contact, that is the next step for you if you get through this.

    Tom

    • toughmat said

      Thanks for your support Tom. There were definitely aspects of hell , but also so many great aspects. I know you know that. i think a huge part of me doesnt want to move on. Similar to the guilt i used to feel when moments passed and i didnt think about my mom. This is different though because I’m forcing it upon myself to lose her
      . logically I understand the differences but it just feels so similar

      • savorydish said

        That feeling will pass. Your memories of your mother are being triggered right now. Work with your therapist to let go of those feelings. You are re-living your past and that is why you are still with this girl. Give yourself permission to be your own person. Your life is rich without her.

  103. naples104 said

    Matt you are welcome, just think of all those good times with out any insanity, that’s what I enjoy now. I felt the same way until I wrote down everything I could remember about the good and bad times, every good time had a price and upon reflection they were not so good. Every holiday, special event I had to deal with her rejection of intimacy and I dont mean sexual intimacy. The special moments of life are the things that make humans feel close and a BPD fears rejection, abandonment and cannot be intimate because of the fear of rejection, hence closeness and loving messages are followed by hatred if they do not feel secure. they are poster children for the saying Heaven knows no hatred like love to hated turned and hell hath no fury like a women scorned. The difference, they need no scorning to turn to hatred and threats in a second. Stay away from her Matt, she is killing you.

    Tom

  104. toughmat said

    I am not sure what is desired by you all ( I know where Save stands and I cant say I disagree regarding me coming here for validation/support/enabling all the meanwhile time is passing me by) as far as me sharing details and updating people, but since you have invested your time and energy I figure it will be of interest. Here is the cliffnotes version:

    -she sent numerous texts and attempts trying for a reaction including fwd messages from her friends whom I have never met that called me “douchebag”, “loser”, “never loved her and have sickness”, etc.
    -said she wants to meet to look me in the eye for closure
    -I respond saying Im not ready yet, that I am respecting my feelings that I need distance but that I love her
    -we dont text for 36 hours and she shows up at my car after coaching
    -we talk, and she comes at me with the ALWAYS and NEVER statements, challenges my love, accusations about putting everyone else first, etc.
    -I hug her, we kiss, she starts crying, and then passes out in my arms–I have to say I have seen this every breakup, this exact thing of crying until passing out and I believe it is an act but I cant prove it nor do I care to accuse her of faking it
    -I tell her I have therapy and she says she wishes she can go
    -therapists approves and she meets him
    -she leaves room and he says straight up he thinks she is borderline
    -I feel validation but despair because seeing her only confirmed how much I care and I knew I was going back and I told him as such
    -therapist says not to beat myself up too bad about it, and that it will work out some how
    -I agree to go to couples therapy with gf which she wants to do as well
    -we agree to start with her therapist who I have seen and like
    -my feelings shift a bit, not sure how (even still) but they are and my dreams are all about how she is not who I thought she is
    -we are getting along well, and it is probably honeymoon phase
    -today we saw her therapist and it went well and I was pretty honest and gf accepted more responsibility than I thought she would
    -her therapist said openly that she does not think my gf is borderline and that was said because my gf brought up the notes she saw of mine that expressed my belief she may be in addition to knowing I bought a book on it awhile back
    – we talked about verbal assaults during breakups, idealization and devaluing and its affects on me, and my gf made it clear that it is my job to meet her needs so she feels secure which the therapist tried to get her to take responsibility for although not much
    -the therapist mentioned how similar she used to be to her husband as my gf is to me but that she has changed
    -in car after my gf expressed how I have broken her trust (notes from trip and facebook messages “betraying her behind her back”) and need to earn it back but said it as if she was trying to be nice and helpful
    -I feel confused, frustrated, and like I dont know what the hell is going to happen although I can see how therapy will help some what and Im surprised how open and honest my gf was even though she has her opinions on the way things should be…ex. looking at other women hurts her and I should never do it to avoid hurting her…just so many expectations whereas I have almost none
    – I feel like this checking in with her and “sharing everything” shit is confining but then I wonder what a healthier woman would be like and I cant imagine complete freedom is ever a possibility…thus leading me to feel like Im just not ready for any relationship let alone one with so many expectations

    Thats where Im at.

  105. naples104 said

    Matt, I will not comment on every line and I have said to you many times please go back and read your entry, better yet have someone read it to you. She is borderline or cluster B and not someone that can love you. The last paragraph, you wonder what a healthy woman would be like? Break up, heal, learn why you are codependent and you will then experience what the love of a healthy women can do for you and how it can make you feel. Congratulation on staying away fro her for so long, I am sure the light of doubt has been seen by you. The doubt that she is worthy of your time and affection, she is not.

    Tom

  106. toughmat said

    Thanks Tom. I think I made it sound as negative as possible. I should, not for defending her sake because I dont want to do that any longer and just stick to as close to reality as I can (to cut through the FOG), re state that she did take more responsibility than I thought for certain things and was very affectionate. I just knew it was all sort of bs though because I guarantee as my friend Save has predicted so many times now that the shoe will drop and drop HARD again. Another negative I found interesting is that she said that her mean words are part of ptsd that she cant control yet…as if they are a physiological response like vomiting she said. She apologized for them which she has but with those kind of statements sort of justifies them and makes it my responsibility to take them and think its ok. Her therapist emphasized that my ability to see my gf’s hurt and want to understand it is a great quality of mine….while some therapists and people here just say I am co-dependent and need to RUN!!! Just wanted to add those things. Thanks.

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