Mickey D

August 26, 2012

Mickey D shares more of her story:

Thank you graciously SD for welcoming my input. The second I hit send I was worried about what the ‘fallout’ might be….I’m glad I could offer a glimpse of understanding into a borderline mind. Please bear in mind that I was diagnosed 20 some years ago, I am now in my early 40′s and have had to live a life of this, in and out of therapy for several years (although it seems I only ever ran to therapy when I was in crisis, exited the minute I felt better….sheesh).

But I will tell you, the younger the borderline, the worse the situation (or should I say undiagnosed). When I was in my late teens, and met the first guy that took me out of my abusive home, when he realized he could no longer deal with me and the mental problems I was displaying (and trust me, I had no idea I was displaying mental instability, that’s how naive we are to this problem). I thought cutting, screaming, threatening suicide, spitting venom if he leaves me, was just a mere overreaction to his mentioning he needs to move out of the relationship.

I spent the next 15 years dating abusive NPD men, getting crazier by the minute because their inability to care (about anyone but themselves) or stick around, was non existant and I could NOT wrap my head around that….still can’t. This is why I’ve spent…..years…..reading and responding on ‘survivors of narcissists’….

I know what you meant when you mentioned the BPD who come running through here screaming foul play. I’ve seen the NPD run through some of the sites I visit too….and it riles me up even more. All I can say, the longer you get hooked up on trying to understand the BPD (or NPD for that matter), the more work you have to do internally from something that went bad in childhood. We are all trying to fix a core wound from our upbringing…if we could just figure out the PD, we will have it ALL figured out is our reasoning.

Again, I feel for all those who are struggling to get out from under what the BPD put you through, I know because I’ve put men through it myself. I’m not proud of it…and I truly am writing this to help you understand….not forgive….just to try and understand. Peace.

Recently, a man, by the name of Mat, asked if he could salvage his BPD relationship. He saw that Mickey D had come out a better person and thought, if only his own ex would seek treatment, he might be able to make it work. But let me say Mickey D is an exception to the rule.

A borderline has to want to get better and then they must overcome great emotional hurdles to stick with it. You are talking at least 7 years of therapy. Many borderlines can not stomach this. My own ex gave up therapy after 3 sessions, because of her fears of therapy. She would rather live a lie. For her, this was the less painful option.

Mickey D has grown into a wiser more mature woman. But age alone does not do the trick. BPD only mellows with age when borderlines find proper and healthy ways to deal with it. Denial, distractions and delusions are common coping methods, but these are maladaptive tactics.

A borderline must confront her past and her disorder with brutal honesty. She must walk across the hot coals of self-awareness before she can make it to the other side. Many BPs are not up to the task. So in evaluating your BPD relationship, you must first evaluate the borderline and yourself.

You must be in tip top shape to handle the roller-coaster ride that is before you. But chances are if you have found yourself in a dysfunctional relationship, you are not in good shape. Birds of a feather flock together. Damaged people find each other in hopes that love will save them.

But this is not true love. This is a co-dependent addiction masquerading as love. Instead of one person hurting themselves. You now have two people hurting each other.

I think we can all learn from Mickey D’s example. As she said, we all have things to work on.

128 Responses to “Mickey D”

  1. Sinn said

    I’m slowly leaving the fog. See, I, have had to move in for a good while (longer than it would’ve been if she was healthy) with a BPD mother, due to the economy in the southern US and living in CoD roommate situations with my brothers after my house burned down when I was 19 (Christmas Eve no less). I’ve lent them thousands of dollars when things were good and they hid behind the BPD mother when the money ran out and opportunities for me dried temporarily. I came to find, although I didn’t know it, ALL the hallmarks of BPD in an older person as she immediately accused me of stealing the church money as she’d just had recently became a treasure for the church, and that dynamic persisted. She was only nice to me when she knew I had money coming or needing me for advice or help. As soon as these things were done or a very short honeymoon period, instead of the trust being built that I could get things done, she would find something minor to rage, blame, and manipulate my feelings about and we would be back at square one.

    The relationships, prestige (nearly everyone USED to respect my brain and total positivity-now I’m seen as the grown child having monthly shouting matches with hi s mother over nothing), and reputation I have lost is incalculable. I’ve worked, helped, plotted to get more ahead for BOTH of us in my life more in 5 years than my whole life to MOVE NOWHERE. Her game was to get what she wanted/needed from the exchange but immediately break the reciprocity to have me fend for myself, even emotionally or for morale, under the “tough love” bullshit of having to fix me for being weak and self-sufficiency when most of my money, time, and plans went into keeping OUR worlds from crumbling. Weird how I think she would’ve done okay if I was not here, but me being here and having someone to blame literally puts her in dire straits she can’t see having the hairtrigger anger, power tripping, and decision making. Our A/C has just broken, and is blowing hot air after being a champ for 20 years…she blames me f or it and duct]tapes it in the ON position, when she’s yelling about electric bills, because it is something she controls, no logic, and also an emotional weapon against me and fuel for her bitterness.

    This is pretty much how she uses everything, until her world burns from the outside and she really needs me to be Superman, putting tremendous weight that would be mitigated absent of the insane push/pull. She was extremely jealous of my fiancee, and used “trying to protect her from me” as the justification of her contributory actions that destroyed the engagement as my fiancee seems to fit the description of BPD as well. I’ve been completely alienated from my family, as it is a big one, distant, so there’s no counterbalance (and the woman is not brave enough to air all the delusions she hurls at me to them..so they can provide some perspective), and I’ve been utterly emasculated. I leave permanently next month as my school’s sending me a year abroad, but it’s not to any well wishes, congrats…as none of my accomplishments so far. I will seek mental health if I feel I’m not maximizing my adventure due to trauma. I could have even went to a better school, but a week before finals, she had me put in jail b/c of a router malfunction. The replacement came and I’d repaired it, sent her a text reminding her about the old WiFi password that she didn’t get…she raged over being offline for 30 minutes for at least 2 hours before calling the cops about my response. They found a warrant over speeding tickets and I had my money tied up in stupid options, forgetting about it..and she left me in jail over a couple hundred bucks for 3 days. I flunked tests, etc, etc..and she knew it was an overreaction.

    They don’t care as they feel pain and they NEED to spread it. They feel doubt and they HAVE to doubt you. Both my ex and mother were like positivity buckets with holes in them. No matter what you put in, work, or make them happy yesterday…today is Groundhog’s Day, and tomorrow’s the worst day on Earth for them about you. However, when they find a new cause or toy, they run for it with reckless abandon…and you don’t exist, even if it will hurt you or put you into a lose-lose situation. Everything is either the most important or the worse ALL THE TIME..but you just want to make everything okay. Yes, I can admit I have some CoD qualities now…but look at what I’ve had to deal with. While my ex’s addiction is now alcohol, starting again heavily while cheating, my mother’s is God and church, even as everything she is and does is antithetical to that. It doesn’t matter, they just say YOU made them lie, cheat, break your heart and wallet and if you’re in the way, even by perception, DESTROY YOU. The fog is hard, because you love how you both felt when you were happy, how you all felt. You don’t want to say that everything you gave, you did so to a mirage. You can’t say it.. And that’s where I’m at…right at cutting my losses but trying to look back for a sign that I can both leave this place as the champion I was while here, or a glimmer that I could have my love back at the peak of the honeymoon period, nevermind the obvious PTSD I have maybe…I’m definitely less trusting, and sometimes show BPD qualities myself…I’m far less patient.

    Anyway, hopefully the time off btw posting forgives me a bit for the space I’ve taken again…but I just wanted to relay both the mature and young perspective of this disorder and how it doesn’t just affect dating partners. You can really fuck up people when you live in a delusion. Children rely on some consistency, and when you’re that one that’s singled out (and this gult tripping/double standard bullshit with me happened years earlier to me moving in-I get the feeling she blames me for the housefire as I was the older sibling then) there’s nothing worst than being expected to be there for someone who wants to make the effect jaded and make sure they don’t have to be there for you.

    • Sinn said

      There are just two important things you better not do when dealing with a BPD, and that’s loving or trusting them. They’re incredibly open and honest when they’re trying to “win” you, and they seem sincere when wanting to do so. Once that happens, they milk you and need to ‘win” someone else. While they’re milking you, anything negative happens in their lives, you’re supposed to fix, even if it’s bought about by their willingness to trust others. They don’t play by any boundaries or rules (will act like they do only if you’re pissed and still “white” to them or neutral). People that don’t like them bother them immensely, even if they know they have you and shouldn’t be worried. They will eventually make you the cause of their frustration.

      They can make a theory, lie, or anything they come up with a full delusion, even if they came up with such knowing initally it was out of cowardice or deception. They simply just start believing and living the lie and will paint you black when you try to snap them out of it. You can broker with it…they can run and destroy faster than you can sneeze and will have no qualms doing it. They are overly sensitive but lack empathy, which makes them dangerous. I guess my experience and research has shown that they always look for someone to “fix” them or make them feel “normal”, but are too arrogant to seek or stick to therapy, even if they’re destroying the lives of others, I guess because they also don’t want that stigma when they’re trying to impress other people. SD was right…I have fleas, but the reason I know I’m not a BPD is that I have self-awareness, and can get alone to myself w/o being bitter and for reflection and not think my world was ending.

      The more intelligent ones are particularly dangerous b/c their delusions can be more elaborate plus they’ve learned how to manipulate and stealth far earlier and are masters at recruiting proxies. You can’t win. The only survival is not to play the game and hope you don’t meet one. We’re here b/c we did so my apologizes and I hope you’re able to heal quicker than I can. I do feel sorry for them..I can’t imagine the hell it must be to constantly doubt everything and hide your true self or not ever know what that self it…but I just don’t see why you have to constantly be in relationships you’re not ready for..and do them so consecutively instantly or during your last one, not caring how disrespectful that is to your ex or soon to be as they can’t just walk away w/o feeling cuckolded or defeated or why you can say the worst things about people whose time you sucked away being there for you. Unfortunately, in the end, it’s just all sour grapes.

  2. Sinn said

    But thanks Mickey and SD…but be careful MD about how you decide you need to “cut” your child off. It won’t happen now, b/c the child is like a pet and something you know wont leave you, but you need to watch out for when that child starts having opinions and wants to asserts its independence, which can conflict with some of your beliefs. Don’t destroy them or triangulate against other siblings and alienate. Work on any problems like you feel two ADULTS should, and you will be providing that child enough love to make it all work. I know it’s going to be hard, but you got to check the “disappointment” button. Sometimes you lot put that on too fast a hairtrigger w/o having the patience to see who was right in the situation and allow growth, from either party, of mistakes. You have to give them that chance, b/c when you shun them…they’re going to want to have someone trust them, love them, unconditionally need them, and in a world of deceptive people and users, you just reduce them to chum. Thanks again everyone.

    • MickeyD said

      “be careful MD about how you decide you need to “cut” your child off. It won’t happen now, b/c the child is like a pet and something you know wont leave you,”

      Had you truly read my post you would understand that I am trying NOT to do that. My child is no longer tiny, he’s in his early teens, he IS gaining his independence and it’s hard for a BP to handle that (same situation, we want to leave before they can leave us). Him and I are extremely close, I have been the absolute best mother I can possibly be to him….and I believe he knows that. Unless you know the full story, it’s not fair to judge another no matter how you’re trying to get your point across.

      Mickey

  3. toughmat said

    A couple of questions regarding bpd based on my ex. Most everyone that knows her thinks she is super sweet, charming, inspiring, and definitely talented. Even I still think all of those things about her including her ability to listen to my problems with understandin. But the part about it me my job to fix any problems was pretty evident including it being my full time job to be devoted and make her feel loved and secure at all times. It was when I failed at the latter that she would show her bp characteristics. So moving forward it is proving frustrating that everyone thinks she is such a little doll and I am yet another bad guy. Even guys from her past are still friendly and respectful with her. This confuses me. Could it be that the other guys never got close enough to her or were also too vulnerable like me to see what was going on?

    • savorydish said

      The closer you get to the BP’s real self, the more of a danger you pose. Rejection at the hands of a person who means too much and knows too much is too much to bear. If you’ve been cut off, it means you got too close for comfort. Your persistent efforts to make it right comes off as a threat. Thus the absurd accusations of stalking.

  4. toughmat said

    Forgive my typos. Writing frantically from my phone. Im the second coming of Sammy ha ha. To add to above- when it was just the two of us or her family or friends everything was great. When it was my friends, that is when things got tricky. Around my family she was great too though. So confused! She is calling me delusional for ever calling her insecure and jealous and that I was projecting those qualities. Sure buddy.

    • savorydish said

      You’re confused because you are involved with a woman who has a split-personality. She is the most perfect lover you’ve ever had and your worst nightmare wrapped up in one. You want to separate the two but you can’t. They are one in the same. That is how they gain access to your most sensitive parts. That’s why it hurts so much.

      An untreated BP is able to cause maximum damage in a short period of time, because they move fast. They are like a tsunami that leaves as fast as it hits. Give yourself time to process and try not to get caught up in your thoughts. I’ve been where you are at this very moment. Only in hindsight, can I see that I was over-thinking and over-reacting, when all I needed was distance. Keep writing and reading. Keep a journal. Let it all out. But do no engage this person. You are caught in the storm. Do all you can to create distance.

  5. toughmat said

    Thanks again. This is really helping me understand what is going on. To be fair, I did stalk her. I told her I did. She also saw me one night because I waited for her outside of the bar by her car to see what she would do because she said some things that made me jealous. Stuff about getting hit on. Even though we were broken up I still love her and so I lost myself and went. So I have issues too and stalked her. They are not false accusations but she is making them as bad as possible.

    • savorydish said

      I’ve been there, my friend. Let me share my story.

      I bumped into my ex at a bar (where we first met) weeks after she cut off communications (her way of punishing me for some perceived rejection). She was going out of her way to make me jealous as well. She made sure she had my attention. We talked but she was playing with me. She had done things to hurt me and I had done things to hurt her. She even admitted to trying to hurt me. I was hoping we could work things out and go back to the way it was. Foolish, I know.

      She ignored me for the rest of night, because that was her childish way of hurting me some more. She told her friends I was stalking her. She was demonizing me and playing the damsel in distress. Another game that borderlines play. To be fair, I felt so lost I drove to her apartment and waited for her. It wasn’t as if I was waiting in the bushes to pounce on her. I didn’t have any nefarious plans to kidnap her or beat her up. I just wanted to talk and make the peace. She threatened to call the police because I wanted to talk. Weeks earlier, we were in each others arms. Now I was Jack the Ripper.

      I suppose by legal definition waiting for someone at their apartment is stalking. But clearly that isn’t the whole story, nor is it a fair depiction of events. When you have been that emotionally involved with someone it is totally absurd to call it stalking. Especially, when all you want is some sort of peaceful resolution. You want to go back to the way it was. Intent is everything, my friend. Only untreated BPs and their enablers will see it differently.

      To make accusations of wrongdoing is complete bullshit when weeks later she invited me back into her life because the guy she had an affair with had rejected her. She even had the nerve to ask if it was ok to keep in contact with my sister, days after she accused me of being a stalker. Can you believe it? This is psychotic behavior, Mat. I want you to see that. I know you can’t see that right now because you are vulnerable to her twisted suggestions. But this woman is playing you like a violin. Please open your eyes.

      These accusations are absurd because it’s all part of the game they play. If you read stories from BPD forums, you will see this re-played over and over again. They WANT you to be obsessed with them. In a totally fucked up way that makes them feel desired. It makes them feel “loved”. It is completely manipulative to accuse you of stalking and then days later call you over to hug and smooch (that’s what my ex did). You can’t possible be the bad guy and their savior at the same time.

      I’m trying to get you to see the games that borderlines play. Yes, you are obsessed just as I was. But you must realize this is her playing with your mind. She is baiting you. And when you take the bait, she accuses you of being a predator aka the stalker aka her tormentor. All of this is bullshit. Read more about demonization and devaluation at the hands of a borderline. That is a pattern of behavior you will see over and over again with these professional victims.

      • savorydish said

        Watch the movie “Casino”. Sharon Stone illustrates the histrionic behavior of a “damsel in distress”. One minute, she is accusing Robert DeNiro of being her abuser and then later she begs him to save her. I’m trying to get you to see this pattern of behavior because once you can do that the fog will lift. Then she will no longer have power over you.

      • savorydish said

        The courts are filled with bullshit cases filed by histrionics looking for attention and sympathy. Judges are aware of this, which is why most of these cases are thrown out. Clearly, the legal system sees through the bullshit. I am trying to get you to see through the bullshit as well. I am trying to keep you out of harms way. I don’t want to hear that you were arrested for bogus charges. That would be devastating for you. That is why I am begging you to find some way of detaching from this woman.

      • savorydish said

        Mat,
        I’ve deleted the post like you requested. But you are doing yourself and your ex a disservice by hiding the truth from her. You are so concerned about scaring her off, that you have agreed to be an active participant in her lies. This blog is my effort to shatter the lies and spread the truth about BPD. I am concerned it is going through one ear and out the other. You are placing this woman’s twisted needs over your own.

  6. toughmat said

    SD

    I get what you are saying. Man, our story with the “stalking” sound very similar. Of course I dont want to hurt her or anyone else. And you know what is funny, the same bar I am being accused of stalking her at, she asked me to pick her up from weeks earlier because she was too drunk to drive. She hardly drinks but I guess that night it was a convenient way to hoover. When I did get her, she did her vomiting act (she does have gi problems but Im certain a lot of it is purging of emotions, and lord knows it made me extra concerned all the time). I think you are right, that these people need the truth…I just dont want a restraining order. I am so compelled to try to explain these things to her but I know Im in fantasy land.

    • savorydish said

      Please don’t misconstrue what I’m saying. She needs to hear the truth, but she won’t listen to you. So don’t even try. That is someone else’s problem now.

      Trust me. I have tried so many times myself, but I have only added fuel to the fire. They never listen and it always makes things worse. Truth is like venom to a BP in denial. That is why she is reacting with hostility and threats.

      If she is making threats, you are in the black. That means everything you do or say is a threat. I know you mean no harm, but that twisted woman does not. That is her pathology.

      I am very sorry because I know how badly you want to make it right. But you are in quicksand right now. The more you try to struggle, the faster you will sink. You can do nothing for a woman who is programmed for self-destruction. If you remain attached she will take you with her. You will not find happiness with a woman who was born to be unhappy.

      Please save yourself. Pull yourself out of the quicksand while you can.

      • savorydish said

        ps- you will find many more similar stories out there. BPD is a world filled with similarities. That is why this blog exists. So you don’t make the same mistakes I did.

  7. toughmat said

    Thanks SD. I have told it like it is and I guess she has bpd after all. No wrist cutting, no suicidal threats (well she said once she would rather die than something about having met me and yes we got back together after that), but you being the seasoned veteran and me being in the FOG, ill take your word I gave enough evidence. Part of me still hopes to hear from her but part of me is scared because I am still so vulnerable.

    • savorydish said

      Hey Mat,

      Thanks for the invitation. I will keep it in mind, the next time I’m in LA. I don’t usually meet with people from this site for my own privacy. So don’t take it personally if I don’t take you up on that. But feel free to write to me any time you need help.

      We will never know for sure if you ex has BPD, until she gets diagnosed. But that will probably never happen. Between MickeyD and me, we seem to agree that the signs are there. Read more about histrionic personality disorder and false accusations. You will find more similar stories. These women are the classic femme fatale. You will also find posts about it here at this site. Just Google it or use the search bar.

      The point is not to pin a label on your ex. The point is to familiarize yourself with certain red flags so you can avoid getting involved with another one of these femme fatales. For now, listen to the voice that is telling you to be afraid of this woman. That is the voice of reason. The one that is hoping she will call again is your co-dependent voice. That voice will only cause you misery.

      BPD addiction is not an easy addiction to break. It can easily be mistaken for love. But if it was real love, she wouldn’t be accusing you of stalking her or badmouthing you on Facebook. It took me a while to come to grips with that truth. It took a lot of research and a lot of soul-searching. I hope you will get there someday soon.

      • savorydish said

        Listen to Mickey D. She is now in her 40s. It took her that long to get to a place where she could be sympathetic to the ones she hurt. Do you really want to wait by the phone for 20 years? Think about all the healthy relationships you will miss out on. I think about all the time I wasted on trying to make it work with histrionic women and it makes me angry. Learn from my mistakes.

  8. toughmat said

    I hear you but I am afraid my inner child or addiction is still so strong it doesnt matter. When I think of her I still think of her beauty, how talented she is, how fun she was, eating with her, talking about stuff…but maybe she really never gave much of a shit about me actually growing and being happy. A good time away from her was not good because she would be jealous even of my male friends…I have a few examples but ill spare everyone. I think you are right, that is not real love, it is selfish in a sense because her insecurity masked genuine care for my well being sometimes. Well being means independence. I still just wonder if I would be walking on eggshells with any female or if that was slowly built into me….because from her standpoint, I was just too sensitive. That means the reason I was a good candidate for someone who needed extra attention and understanding for her health issues and fears was used against me….hence my mind fuck. One thing I would also like to bring up, is that in the last few months I found much comfort by talking to her psychologist (even though it was for me I would talk about her a lot almost as if I was clueing the pscy in on reality). The pscyh was very good and I think she actually has some potential to help my ex. My ex was the one who suggested I see her. Now she is telling me that Im prohibited from visiting her, or speaking with anyone she knows or else! It is true I gather comfort from talking to people she knows to stay connected, and obviously I have become obsessed with talking about it in general. Perhaps it is part of my recovery process of processing WTF happened.

  9. MickeyD said

    Mat I’m feeling your pain. The men I could NOT let go of were the NPD brand….and no matter how you slice it up, a PD is NOT capable of loving, lasting, long term feelings in any type of relationship. They/we run the second you get too close. As far as you feeling like you’ve been walking on eggshells, well…BPD’rs have a way of making sure you do…one little glance in the wrong direction and you could potentially be split black…how could you NOT be walking on eggshells? Or, you put cologne on today???…you’re cheating on me!!! As far as the men I used to date….I saw them as either weak or strong (no, there was no grey it was one or the other). They were either weak in the sense that they were ‘sensitive’, over-caring, too williing to help, needy, clingy, desperately wanting me near, can’t wait to get married, etc. The other camp was the STRONG man….the one who would leave me hanging, the one who acted like he didn’t care after a night of great sex/fun, the one I didn’t hear from for weeks at a time, the one who never thought to ask me about my day…just when can we have more sex? OF COURSE, I was highly addicted to the one who didn’t give a darn about me….in my mind, I was gonna fix that, I was gonna make him realize that I’m different, that I had something no other woman did, and I made it my mission to change him and get him to come to his senses (me). All it got me was hospitalized from excessive stress. In reality though, when I look at all those relationships, neither side ‘won’ (if you want to call it that)….the weak man I saw as a doormat, non-exciting, boring, uneventful, blaaahhhhh. I felt I could walk all over him and he wasn’t going anywhere….I totally disrespected him. The strong man, although more challenging…when I finally did break him down, splitting him black, leaving him, played his own game….he finally came around….it was at that point, I realized he’s too sick for me and I can do better…so I got my revenge and broke his heart back. Did I feel good in either scenario? No. But that’s how it worked (for me at least). I ended up marrying the more needy/clingy type…it’s been a rocky road but it gets better everyday.

    All I can say Mat is connect with YOU and get your mind off HER for tiny bits at a time (set times up during the day that you will commit to NOT thinking about her…the rest of the day think about her all you want). One day you will see how crazy making this all was and wonder how you ever endured this for so long, if you don’t get physically illl first….disordered people have a way of making YOU crazy and sick if you’re not careful.

    All the best.

    MickeyD

  10. toughmat said

    Thanks MickeyD. I don’t think I classified as either too strictly, more a little of both to my ex. My ‘lust’ and my friends made me dangerous to her. I really keep telling myself she was not as bad as other borderlines because she didn’t have too many episodes and often times it seemed like she really loved me. What do I know at this point. I will take the advice and go no contact for awhile at least. In fact I will never contact her until I hear from her.

    • MickeyD said

      “In fact I will never contact her until I hear from her”.

      Mat, this is not the idea of ‘no contact’. This is still allowing her to control you and the situation. THIS is precisely the time you DO NOT contact her and be strong for yourself. She knows it’s killing you to not contact…so she throws you a bone and here you come running with your tail wagging? DON’T DO IT. Please. If you’re trying to make some kind of impression, or point, or whatever to this woman….saying how high when she says jump is NOT the way to do it. Sorry if I sound harsh but you’re only hurting yourself more. Any amount of healing you do between now and next time she contacts you will only set you back at square one…basically you’ll be right back here, feeling the same exact way you do now. Be strong.

      MickeyD

      • savorydish said

        @ Mat-
        Mickey D is 100% right. Stop torturing yourself, hoping that she will call someday. There’s no point in reading this blog if you’re just going to create loopholes for her. Stop making excuses for her. She is very very sick and she needs help. Stop deluding yourself into thinking you will find happiness with this woman. If you’re having trouble breaking the addiction, get help. There is nothing else I can do for you other than to point out the obvious. You are creating your own misery by longing for a woman who doesn’t love you.

        You listed all these great qualities that she has. But what about her mental health? What about the horrible things she’s done to you? Replace all your fond memories with the part of the story you conveniently left out. Mental health should be at the top of your checklist. Ask yourself why it isn’t. Strength comes from realizing that you don’t need someone else to make you feel whole. Especially, if that person doesn’t feel whole. Two empty people do not make a whole person.

        Shift that hyper-intense focus onto something that will bring you happiness. Sports, travel, school, writing… If you must think about her, start writing about all the screwed up things she’s done to you. It worked for me. This blog successfully turned me off my ex. I just kept writing until I only associated bad things with her memory. Control your thoughts. Don’t let your thoughts control you.

  11. toughmat said

    She is friendly and communicates with her previous ex. Reading stuff about being dead after they split you black is not adding up with my ex. Her previous ex cheated on her. I do know she slept with one of his friends or they became friends after she slept with the new one. It all bothers me. Its like I need to know all the facts, the reasons why, I don’t know.

    • Sinn said

      Yeah, I’m in the SAME situation. Like everyone is trying to tell you, THEY ONLY CARE/LOVE/OBSESS about the ones that will eventually abandon them of their own NATURAL inclination, which is why they’re both players and PLAYER BAIT. She treats her exes right b/c they are potential boomerrangs, no matter how they treated her. A BPD will have her revenge eventually, but from what I read, they actually prefer a guy who cheats on them..they want a challenge b/c all they do if obsess about their insecurities, deficiencies the rest of the time. Drama gives them focus. I’m trying to get my ex to meet me ONCE for closure. It’s not happening. They treat you like shit in the end b/c they love how you wiggle on that hook for being stuck on it with the pain of it.

      They love to have another person in agony and pain, b/c if you actually listened to them while you were in the r/s with them, they fell that ALL THE TIME, even with you. They LOVE sharing it as part of their whole “justice” martyrdom thing as my mom has shown me. The reason cheaters get more respect is that they know that acting like an asshat with them will produce no reaction. Plus, they’re probably relapse and sleep together anyway, no matter who she’s with. It’s not hard to stop torturing yourself, but both of us should take the advice and just disappear. I had another woman hit on me a while on my FB and ex immediately started stalking my page again, after unblocking me. That’s how they work..but my heart is too honest and I want only her..iI want to make it right..but MENTAL HEALTH of both parties should be the highest on the list. It won’t work otherwise.

  12. toughmat said

    Thanks again Mickey D. You’re right. Im having a rough time tonight missing my best friend. Its insane. When we first broke up this last time I sort of acted like an ass ignoring her because she pushed me away for what I thought was bs. I can’t help but to wonder if I took a loving approach then instead of ignore her. How things would be different. But it would have probably ended up something else.

    • savorydish said

      Mat,

      You’re playing the “only if” game. If only I had been nicer. If only I had done this or done that. This is self-torture. Stop torturing yourself. Nothing you could have done would have changed the inevitable. This woman was damaged long before she met you. Whatever you did or didn’t do was a drop in the bucket. Cluster Bs create no-win scenarios. You will never win as long as you stay with her. The only way you can win is if you work on yourself and find someone who can appreciate you and treat you the way you deserve to be treated. Understand?

      • savorydish said

        You deserve better. Your road to recovery starts when you start believing that you deserve better. Practice being your own mental coach. Be firm but be nice to yourself. Give yourself positive reinforcement every day. And stop beating yourself up. You are wounded. Beating yourself up is not going to help you heal.

    • Sinn said

      Yeah, I was already driven, but my ex brought out a level in me I never thought was possible. The problems she cited for the breakup and me trying to “make it right” will most likely, from my research, have me pretty much set for life in the next 5 years. I know how you feel for having that big expectation that this is a person that would/could be your battery..but they’re really not worth it. We’re trying to create glue to seal back a past forever ripped apart from the BPDers’ actions. The smear campaign, the cheating, the emasculation, the police at your house talking about your emails, which weren’t threatening but she wanted to destroy you that minute; this is your real future with a Cluster-B. Even if we do get them back, if we thought things were compressed before, imagine getting them back by our needing, and having to BEND OVER even further for a hairtrigger “house money” shopper. I just wanted the person we were both making me as to feel whole.

      She watched me work all that time, and I was fully extended, like a caterpillar, and cut me in half while I was. There’s just a part of me I know won’t grow back from the betrayal…but we still fail to realize that what we want, and how we want will destroy us more than what had initially. You don’t want a Cluster-B with even MORE power over you and less consideration about their emotions. It’s hard watching them drink and whore off after you…b/c maybe they were doing it behind your back as well (remember that), but we have to start trying to deleverage ourselves from the illusion and find people, and learn to trust again, women that could actually give a fuck about us past the “best moment of their lives”. Everything’s the best, until it aint, and when it aint, u have hell to pay or they shop on you. Imagine the leverage she’d have after pleading for her back? Might as well call it an open relationship. We didn’t get what we deserved, but we got what we got. Dont let anyone tell you how long or how to heal, but if you want a nugget of hope…just go see someone else for a while and act like she doesn’t exist.

      • Sinn said

        A borderline is like a badly crafted video game, I’m starting to feel. The reason my ex opened back up when she knew I was about to star seeing someone else (if even a crack) was b/c they make decisions out of cowardice and repercussions for being on such a hair trigger with their emotions and they’re NEVER satisfied with that choice. That doesn’t mean you go after her trying to convince her. Again, you’re dealing with someone whose feelings are inappropriately out of whack, and I feel the only way to outtrick a BDPer is to either become that or an NPDer, their natural “lure” or counterpart. It’s easy to be both: STOP GIVING A FUCK. I’m damaged goods anyway at this point. We have people celebrating sluts, a million people in “open” relationships, and a shit economy cause everyone’s always focused on the sex and not getting shit done anymore. I’m already on a trip to NPD land.

        But, Mat, in your case, if you ‘re really trying to get her back, understand what has happened. She has spent the entire r/s (whether you know it or not) assuming your identity. She has rejected that identity and looked at all of it’s flaws (they know you better than you do after a while b/c all they do is obsess) and in her initial delusion, it was considered lacking. You want a chance at her or anything else from here, you have to get a makeover. Just an entirely different you after disappearing for a while so the fickle tart won’t think you’ve done it for her. I’m not changing for her, I’m just completely burnt out from a lot f things that’s happened, especially giving so much time to a person that can end up slandering and hating me THIS much after so many “best” proclamations. I bet she starts opening up when it’s done.

        I’m sorry for you Mat, being used and discarded is not a place any human wants to be in, but we are not both caught in a game, that we’re choosing to play in and that’s trying to outfox someone who knows everything about us, or every way we can get in emotionally. Change the game or do no play it..but you need to know, that despite what she told you during the r/s, you were a game, a toy, a tool…all of these things combined b/c she was scared or unable to perform what these actions were meant for herself. I think I could get back in and make sure mine gets help now. It’s starting to become cancerous. No matter what Mickey says, they dont’ have empathy..they don’t care about time, don’t appreciate anything but the fix someone filling their void provides them, and in the end, you’re no different.

      • Sinn said

        And no the statement below wasn’t a call to change yourself to lure a borderline, just a theory. I believe they are hardwired with extreme flight/fight responses and are very paranoid and comorbid. This is why they don’t seek treatment, b/c they feel they’re so different and people will judge them harshly if all they want to do is rip people in half over the tiniest infractions and not divine what they want. So they seek out people to facilitate one of two poles they seek…the get the CoD for the emotional support to get them past a low and leave them for the NPD types for the excitement. They don’t care about people as anything but a fix for the void. However, I don’t feel they want you to completely disappear out of their lives either, EVEN if they’ve split you black. You should for your own safety b/c they will want you as you were, to be rejected or accept them for what they’ve done to you..per my parent’s example. I fell they believe everyone uses people like this, because a lot of BPDers are theorized to have biological underpinnings, which means their parents are usually like this and you’re just seeing their good faces. Weird how with all the chaos a BPDer tells you about their parents, they’re usually their main enablers.

        Anyway, I believe the reason they usually destroy you when you get to close is b/c it’s easy. Notice that most severe BPD rages/acting out’s happen at a key juncture in the r/s. What we all interpret as “cold feet” activates their extremely sensitive F/F response and since usually the most obvious BPDers are women and either lhey can turn any situation against you in a sexist manner (you’re always the aggressor) or if offering sex for coping, that removes the layer that would be up for a man doing the same (women usually need an emotional connection, when a BPDer is emotionally numb, any man can score) as a man doesn’t need anything but an offer to get with a woman.

        This means a BPDer can cause an extreme amount of damage in a short period of time. Since normal people respond to insanity with extreme anger/remorse, this will soon overwhelm the BPDer and make them numb to you, and if they did want to do anything to save whatever, it is now too tough for an emotional coward. Couple that with the amount of enablers they can recruit and you have a grown 3 year old that’s never really been told no or dealt with the consequences of their behaviors.

        No, I’m not changing to get back into that, although initially I THOUGHT I could try to get a situation where she remembers how good we were and see how much I’ve grown and would try again..and we’d honeymoon and I’d make sure she got back into therapy b/f that period ended…but it’s really not worth it. When they paint you black..it takes an act of God to remove it w/o them just waking up one day to “forget” what they’ve done conveniently (again, parent’s example-waif was always extremely remorseful for rages until final week of r/s).

        I’m changing b/c dealing with these people eats your soul completely away and you feel like Frodo after the ring…and empty husk that can only be filled by the person that gutted you by bringing back the inner child she murdered betraying you when she made you work so hard, be there so long, validate every feeling…and then faulted on a simple r/s expectation and started smearing you for justification. Normal people don’t get through that. Contemporary culture is just simply used to betrayals for sex and not being able to trust anyone.

        A borderline is a different case, as they really dig to get inside you and waste a GARGANTUAN amount of time to leave you empty and feeling the sting to your eyes of the illusion. Since there’s no way to Spotless Sunshine the whole experience (b/c there’s nuggets of beauty in there too)..that identity she co-opted then rejected has to die too. I also believe this is the only way to “start over” w/a BPD and I will report in a year what went down. I’ll read a comment for a bit, but I’m in checking out mode to the person I was. Thanks for suffering me.

  13. Once Bitten said

    Is it just me?

    I seem to be meeting women who I am attracted to who give me similar stories of bad treatment at the hands and minds of their ex partner and I tell them about BPD and NPD inferring their partner had this and believing she is co dependent.

    Then as the friendship develops I start to think it is the woman who is the BPD and the ex either co dependent or NPD and I’m just the new suckling pig in her life – if I don’t do a runner quickstix !?

    • savorydish said

      BPs alternate between co-dependents (white knights) and NPs (abusive boyfriends). Like Goldilocks, they go from hot to cold. As Mat has pointed out, dysfunctional people look for extremes. The “just right feeling” is foreign.

      • Once Bitten said

        Yes and I guess that co dependent types are not really attracted to other co dependent types?

        So if I describe myself as co dependent I won’t be attracted to the woman I’m thinking is a co dependent herself making her a BPD making her the wolf in sheeps clothing!?

        They are so believable at first before the cracks appear and turn into mighty fissures.

      • savorydish said

        Disordered people do not operate by hard set rules. But yes, fixers tend to find people who need fixing. When I met my ex, she said she mistook me for an NP. But when I gave her a simple hug, she felt something was there. Something in my hug must have read “caretaker” or “nice guy”. I don’t like to think of myself as a co-dependent but I stayed with this girl for a good part of a year, despite all the horrible things she did to me. I didn’t want to get into a relationship, but yet she was able to throw me into the deep end. I ignored signs and tolerated abuse. This has me taking a serious look at my own personality. I am a magnet for troubled women. I can not deny that now. I give off a certain vibe. If you’ve had one BPD relationship, chances are you’ve had many more.

  14. Once Bitten said

    Women with HBPD seem to offer so much at first then as time goes on you realise that promises are not kept, plans to do certain things are never mentioned again and arrangements to do things are switched at the last minute.

    It’s like you are a puppet on a string and spend time wondering when or if all those promises will be made good it’s like waiting for a cheque to arrive in the post and when it finally does it bounces!

    An emotional imbalance is created so you are always in a needy position and the HBPD always dominating and controlling how when and if anything happens.

    They are like a nicely wrapped gift box but when you open it you don’t know if you will find a nice cake or a viper will jump out at you.

    Just a few random thoughts as I try to work out my latest strange affair!

    • MickeyD said

      Once Bit, I hear you. Take it from someone who had a tendency to cancel trips on the way to the airport, or leave vacations midway through (leaving whomever I’m with behind). When dating, sometimes my date would show up at my door and I would pretend not to be home. This has nothing to do with you. This is the point I’ve tried to make here about staying connected….it takes 100% vigilance. When you lack identity, the hardest thing to do is spend time with others and just be yourself.

      MickeyD

      • Once Bitten said

        You sound really healthy MickeyD and it’s rare to hear validation instead of denial and devaluation from someone who has BPD.

        Must admit whilst I am both seduced and horrified at times by my encounters with ladies with HPD my response now is to run and not look back! Or at least know where the emotional fire exit is from this burning building of a relationship!

        Best of luck on your journey though, you deserve success for putting the work in.

      • savorydish said

        My ex would keep vacation plans (even plan them) but then would alternate between being prickly and detached. She was always on time, early on. But as the relationship got more serious, she looked for ways to sabotage the relationship. Cancel plans etc. Mixed messages galore. If a lover starts being flaky that means they are on the verge of nuking the relationship. They are in the process of detachment ie not caring.

    • savorydish said

      Broken promises was the main theme to my HBPD relationship, especially towards the end. 3 days after she told me not to worry, she confessed she had sex with the man who she said was just a friend.

    • Sinn said

      I was with a waif, so I can’t speak to that, and I’m sure my mom was a witch/waif combo, but my dad has done EVERYTHING you’ve just described then and now. He tried to make my mother emotionally dependent on him b/c he was never able to keep a job. Rotated btw hot and cold on us too…I really loved his “good days” but they were few and far btw. He ended up drinking himself into maybe 14 heart surgeries. He was always right. Yeah, he would fault on promises and go on endlessly about the ones he kept, and if we were too young and stupid and bring up a promise later, we had hell to pay with the insults. Mother and ex done things and acted like martyrs later, even if it was the tiniest in the big picture. You just couldn’t win. The more you done things, the less effect it had on them and became expected, while their payoffs became less and less.

  15. MickeyD said

    Thank you Once Bit, it’s been a long road. I like your metaphors, at least you’ve managed to keep a sense of humor through it all.

    MickeyD

  16. toughmat said

    Hearing these stories makes me think how bad it can be and how bad my ex was NOT in certain ways. She would never cancel plans and was always willing and eager to stick to them and make them. Fuck if I am not confused as all hell.

    • savorydish said

      You’re only making yourself confused. It’s quite clear that your ex has deep-seated issues, but you’re in denial. So you’re looking for a reason to believe that she wasn’t that bad. She has already put you in exile. Yet still you are willing to believe she’s not that bad. I hate to be so blunt. But you need to open your eyes. Stop trying to re-imagine the past. It’s officially over. These relationships have expiration dates on them. The milk has already turned sour. You can not make it drinkable again.

    • Sinn said

      I know you don’t want to believe you’re dealing with a BPDer (it took me A LOT of self convincing even though I knew something was up with all of this), but look up the different BPD personality types. Histrionics are purely ME ME drama types, and I won’t go through the rest. The thing is, if she called you a stalker over something she led you into WHILE you were in “exile”, she’s a borderline. It’s probably that she’s between relationships and needs something to do so she toys with you. Just go find something else to do for a while. With you intensity (and OMG I can’t even channel mine in enough things AND still obsess about “us”), you will accomplish more than you know. I know it feels a lot emptier, again, you’ve lost your BEST FRIEND, but it’s all for you now. That person that walked out on you wasn’t real and she’s not coming back, unless she can’t trust any more random dudes or the expiration date of her smear campaign of you has ended w/o you being seen to refill it. That’s, imo, the only way. But again, no matter what we want, we’re not going to get either what we once had, or we can’t get anything beneficial to us if we’re now on the lower end of the relationship parity scale. Needing her back to “complete” us and being that “best friend” again is asking to be a doormat. We do deserve better than that..even if every minute passes at times w/o them feels like acid on our soul. They seem to know exactly what they’re doing, but not what they’re really toying with.

  17. Toughmat said

    I understand. Im genuinely lost. I hAve an appt with a psychiatrist with a lot of experience treating bp and nons on monday. I hope that will snap me into reality

    • savorydish said

      Awesome. I think that will help. But ultimately, it’s up to you. Do it for yourself. Not because you think it will win her back. Good luck.

      • Toughmat said

        I am doing for myself. Thanks. I am severly depressed right now that the girl i care about so much now hates me. Deep down i believe i can get her back but im scared of every scenario. With her without her i dont know sd im not living w any conviction. I dont blame her at all for it. What do you think i am in denial about?

      • savorydish said

        You are trying to win back a woman who is incapable of giving the love you want. That is denial.

      • savorydish said

        It’s not so much that you believe that you can win her back as it is that you have convinced yourself that you can win her back. Denial is a method of self-medication. You are treating depression with delusion. You are filling yourself with false hope and ignoring the evidence that proves that,even if you did win her back, you would be completely miserable. The irony is that you are treating short-term depression with long-term depression.

  18. toughmat said

    I see what you mean. I read thru the book called ‘stop walking on egg shells’ a bit this morning it was pretty interesting about how bpd can come in all shapes and sizes. I suppose if I did get back it would be great for awhile then issues would probably surface again about me putting other things first, paranoia about other women etc.

    • MickeyD said

      While you’re reading Mat, another good book might be “Obsessive Love” by Dr. Susan Forward. Here’s what the back cover says:

      * Do you constantly yearn for someone who is not physically or emotionally available to you?

      * Do you believe that if you want this person enough he or she will have to love you?

      * When you are rejected, does it drive you only to want this person more?

      etc.

      I’m just coming from a place of ‘help’ Mat, obviously I’ve been there or I wouldn’t have the book…..I’m pulling for you and your situation, it’s so hard.

      Mickey

      • savorydish said

        We’ve all been there. It gets tricky for nons because bps do not present themselves as being emotionally unavailable. When you are in the thick of it, they come on strong. You are swept up by a surplus of emotions. It actually makes you pull back a little because it is too intense.

        But the pull-back reaction is what sounds the alarm in the bp’s head. The person who was overly available now withdraws into her shell. She is protecting herself. She now identifies you as a flight risk.

        What the non must understand is that there is no going back. This is hard to accept because the emotions seemed so real. But in fact the BP was just going though the motions, because the nature of her disorder is such that she can not really love someone.

        Mat, you must accept that you were there to fill void. A void that can not be filled. You were charged with an impossible task. You were destined to fail.

      • Sinn said

        Sounds a little like devaluation to me. BPDers, in my experience, are the obsessive ones. They are always about their feelings, until they’re with someone else led by their feelings, and you’re left there with yours for a person that made you accountable and left you with not even the self-respect of closure and everyone telling you to move the fuck on. You spend, or risk a crying fit, more than 8 hours a day in front of a PC (14 when not working) for a person 4K miles away who is jealous of even VIDEO GAMES, and can leave you 3 months b/f you meet her with your money after spend all that money, time, phone charges…and then call me obsessive. No,

        BPDers get their fix from you and RUN..that’s all they do-hit and run..then get made when men do that to them and their friends. I’m pretty sure these witches CREATE PLAYERS. You said yourself you consider THE STRONG MAN the one that doesn’t give a fuck about anything but sex…lmfao. The WEAK man actually listens and is empathetic to your emotions. You married him but consider his type “clingy”. Obsessive much..no offense at all..but you lot know a certain type of person is what you need and you get off rejecting them to chase men emotionally unavailable and call them obsessed and weak later when they held a lot of your emotions like buckets. Thanks for being one of the sympathetic ones tho.

  19. toughmat said

    Thanks, I actually had a session with susan forward once about a year and a half ago. She is single with loads of plastic surgery gone wrong, but she had a lot of good insight. My ex is emotionally available but because of my rejection she has now rejected me. She claims I have betrayed her but I think she does this stuff to get a reaction out of me and to justify her being rejected. She loves to love and be loved, problem is her views on devotion are un reasonable and come off as controlling. I now realize she only operates out of self preservation. Not to make me miserable.

    • MickeyD said

      Apparently through that ‘self preservation…..’someone’ is making you miserable….is it you or her??? I say it’s you. If she’s emotionally available then she’s not BPD and you’re barking up the wrong tree. I sincerely hope you can find your peace in all this, someday. In the meantime, I guess just keep looking for that right answer, that word that will fix the whole thing, the right strategy, the right diagnosis…if you find it, lemme know….I might need it one day.

      Mickey

    • savorydish said

      You are right. They don’t do it to make you miserable. But to stay together would make both of you miserable. As you said, they are merely self-preservationalists- not sadists. But they can be self-destrucitve- possibly masochists. What you interpret as emotionally avalaible is an illusion constructed by a woman who is trying to fake being normal (self-preservation). She fooled you because she needed someone to fill the void. BPs yearn to be close. But once they get there, it’s another story. The idea of love is always appealing to a dysfunctional personality. But being in the moment is always a challenge. It is a struggle to act like someone they are not. No one can possibly keep this act up for very long. When the mask falls off, they run off. They are too embarassed. Like someone who suddenly finds themselves naked in a public space. They cover themselves in shame.

      • MickeyD said

        Yes SD, BPD’s (at least me for that matter) did everything out of self preservation. If we feel we are going to be abandoned, we abandon. If you back off, we back off big time, if we sense you are leaving…we are GONE. If we’re talking a sadist or a masochist, I would definitely be described as the latter (self destructive on every level). The only problem I have in all that you say is, you make it all sound so ‘well thought out’, ‘orchestrasted’, ‘planned’. We simply act on what we are reading from you…..we can’t even plan our grocery list, let alone how to get even with you. This is me though, I’m not one to be super vindictive and out to hurt, I’m only concerned about whether or not someone is about to hurt me, and I act accordingly.

        MickeyD

      • savorydish said

        That is a totally fair comment. Much of the BP behavior is reactive. Or rather, over-reactive. My ex was way too chaotic to plot my demise. She was preserving herself at my expense. But at some point, she has to take ownership of her behavior.

      • MickeyD said

        “Much of the BP behavior is reactive. Or rather, over-reactive.”

        You’re definitely right about that SD. Much of the BPD reaction, er…over-reaction is simply a knee-jerk reaction to a perceived threat. Take this example: I went to visit boyfriend at work, I noticed on the back of his office door some nice clothes (his) hanging, clothes that were not there a few weeks ago. Suddenly, in my mind….I’m thinking…1) he has a spare set of clothes, 2) he was late calling me one day this week, 3) the nice shirt is in red meaning the color of love, 4) HE’S CHEATING ON ME!!! Soooo, because I am now being very careful about picking my battles (so not to look like the raging psycho for the 3rd time this week), I decide I’m not going to say a word about this. As a matter of fact, I went into complete silent treatment for 5 days! Boyfriend had no idea what my problem was, yet he continued to go about his business (which pisses us off even more because you should KNOW why we are so mad). Anyway, I can’t maintain the silent treatment for too long before I begin forgetting what I was mad about. So, a couple weeks later we are leaving his office, he says “Mick, grab those clothes on the back of the door, I need to bring those home”. I say “oh, ok, why are they even here”?…as if it’s really no big deal. He said “you remember, I had that corp meeting at hq the other day, didn’t want to go in my work clothes”…..Mickey not feeling like an idiot right now, just relieved, yeah, everything is good again!!! Until we go to get in his car, WHY IS THE PASSENGER SEAT IN A DIFFERENT POSITION FROM LAST TIME I WAS IN HERE???….Mickey’s mind….who’s been riding next to him??? Rinse, repeat.

        Mickey

      • savorydish said

        One time, I went to a store to buy my ex a dress for her birthday. I spoke with a saleswoman because I had no idea what I was doing. Later that day, I had my ex come with me so she could try it on. The sales lady asked if she was my friend. Suddenly, a black cloud drifted over the store.

        My ex just shot me a cold stare, said she was not impressed and walked right out. The saleswoman was wondering what she just said that made her so upset. So I got out to the car to do damage control like I often did. And when I asked her what was wrong, she proceeds to accuse me of flirting with the saleswoman.

        Because the saleswoman had assumed that we were just friends, my ex assumed I must have told her that. What? Why would I bring her to the store if I was hitting on the saleswoman? So at this point, you could chalk it up to a misunderstanding. All good. Right? Nope. My ex stews about it all day and all week.

        Few weeks later she meets a guy who she says is just a friend. And she is helping him get through a bitter divorce. She has known him for all of two weeks and I’m suppose to believe she is helping him. So obviously I call bullshit on her. She flips out. Demands that I return her apt keys.

        A week goes by and she confesses that she slept with the guy who was just a friend. And that was the end of our relationship. So yeah, I guess you could say she over-reacted or say she was just preserving herself. But you could also say that she is a selfish and spiteful bitch.

      • MickeyD said

        “So yeah, I guess you could say she over-reacted or say she was just preserving herself. But you could also say that she is a selfish and spiteful bitch.”

        Well, yeah, you could say that. BPD’s all react differently I guess. I was never one to run off and have sex when I was currently involved, no matter how bad the situation. Although my morals were sometimes questionable, sexually messing with people was one line I never crossed. Never wanted the image of ‘slut’, or allow someone the legitimate opportunity to call me that. I always took my rage out on myself…. cutting, drinking, suicide attempts etc.

        Sorry you had to go through that….I see why you would be bitter.

        Mickey

      • savorydish said

        Thank you, Mickey.

        You bring up a good point. I have found through my conversations with BPs of all shapes and sizes, that the ones who self-harm are the least likely to harm others. But some BPs who have given up self-harm, have replaced self-harm with behavior that emotionally scars loved ones. They are transferring their pain onto others. Thus it is BPs like my ex who give BPD a bad name, a stigma if you will.

        My ex has a troubled relationship with sex. We both think that she was sexually-abused as a child. It would seem whatever it was that activated her BPD, was very influential in how her BPD would manifest itself. If you were beaten as a child then you become a violent abuser. If you were sexually-molested then you learn to use sex as a way to harm others. This last bit is my own theory, but I have seen a good deal that proves this theory right.

        As I’ve said before, my ex is probably worse than most BPs. She is a BP with histrionic/abusive tendencies. She has been victimized and re-victimized. But that has only made her a horrible human being. When people are abused they are conidtioned to become abusers. Sad but true. That is how the cycle repeats itself.

        What’s worse is that she pretends to be a martyr-saint, while treating people like shit behind closed doors. In her troubled mind, she is always the victim, never the abuser. And that is why it is so important for partners of BPs to find validation.

      • MickeyD said

        Well SD, I guess the sexual aspect of BPD comes in all different flavors as well. I was abused physically with sexual undertones…..this created a very troubled sexual self image as well. To continue my self harm (as i grew out of cutting etc.), I learned that I could still carry out the self harm, just allow men to do it! So my flavor of sex was rough, wild, no intimacy and no self boundaries….basically be taken advantage of in the name of eroticism. They say BPD’s learn to sexualize their childhood punishments, I believe that.

        At any rate, sexually acting out and being promiscuous is yet another way of self harming…..so your ex was doing that, just making sure she took you down with her. Again, I’m sorry you had to deal with that kind of BPD.

        Mickey

      • savorydish said

        “I was never one to run off and have sex when I was currently involved, no matter how bad the situation. Although my morals were sometimes questionable, sexually messing with people was one line I never crossed. Never wanted the image of ‘slut’, or allow someone the legitimate opportunity to call me that.”

        That’s what makes you a better person. Despite similar backgrounds,you chose to rise above your circumstances. You chose to accept responsibility for your actions. She did not.

        She used her tragic past as an excuse to behave badly and then became a feminist so she could blame society for “slut shaming” her. Because as you pointed out, when you are in a committed relationship and you fuck around, people will label you a slut. And rightfully so.

        In the end, my problem is not with people with BPD or victims of sexual abuse. It’s people who use these things as an excuse to pass on the abuse or (as you say) bring people down with them. That is the sort of behavior that gives BPD its stigma.

        I am truly sorry for all the horrible things that have been done to you. Nobody deserves that. My suffering is just a drop in the bucket compared to yours. But yet you still have room for compassion and empathy, when so many BPs do not. At one time, I had compassion for my ex and her suffering until she decided she was going to pull me down with her.

      • savorydish said

        Maybe you have shown the difference between BPD and Histrionic Personality Disorder.

      • MickeyD said

        Quite possibly SD. I never liked to draw attention to myself, kept mostly to myself, stayed pretty low profile….aside from the extreme attempts to get a mans attention, ie half-ass suicide attempts. I never acted out in a flambouyant, wreckless, I’m going to screw you kind of way, I internalized my turmoil. Was I able to just up and walk away from relationships???…yep, sometimes that was no problem and I guess in that respect I was considered cruel, selfish and a bitch….that’s the disorder though, we have to make you the absolute worst person in the world in order to detach…even if it’s only in our heads. Granted some go to the other extreme (which sounds like your ex) and they drag your name through the mud….they REALLY have to put the split black stamp of approval on you in order to convince themselves, and to make it believable…. they get everyone around them to agree with their way of thinking just so they can feel better about themselves in the decision they have made.

        Mickey

      • savorydish said

        “we have to make you the absolute worst person in the world in order to detach…even if it’s only in our heads.”

        Thank you for confirming this after so many bps have come here trying to prove that I must be the worst person in the world, including my beloved ex and her proxies.

        It seems the only way they could discredit this blog was to prove that I was the devil himself. But as you said, bps often use this tactic to run away from a relationship. Mine certainly did. Smearing my good name was the only way she could justify it to herself and her friends. I had to transform this blog into a BPD info-machine just to counter the attacks and set the story straight. But even then there was a good amount of denial and even more character attacks.

        You can say BPs do not orchestrate the downfall of their partners, but my ex was able to cause a lot of damage to me in a short amount of time. Before her,I spent years rebuilding my trust of women. She destroyed all of that. How long before the next one comes along to knock me down again? But critics say it is unwise and unfair to speak out. For someone who doesn’t orchestrate her efforts, she seems to attract a lot of support for her horrible ways.

      • MickeyD said

        “Before her I spent years rebuilding my trust of women. She destroyed all of that. How long before the next one comes along to knock me down again.”

        You’re wiser now SD, from your writings it appears as though you’ve got a pretty good understanding of PD’s.

        One strategy that might help, so not to meet up with another BPD, on your first date ask these questions: What are your goals? What are your talents? What do you love more than anything? Where do you see yourself in 5 years? If she’s BPD….she wont have a freaking clue. BP’s lack identity. YOUR clue to get the hell out of there.

        Mickey

      • savorydish said

        If only it were that easy, my ex had all of those things and more. She had goals and ambitions. Brains and beauty. How could I not fall for her? This histrionic boderline has learned to cover up her emotional handicap. On paper, she was perfect. But that was on the surface.

        Everytime I think I have learned my lesson, I meet a borderline who is more crafty than the next. In one of our final conversations, she even smirked and bragged about how good she was a hiding her crazy side. Histrionics are deceptive by nature. It’s a survival skill.

        That is why I have done exhaustive research. People mistaken this blog for an obsession, but it is actually the only way I can prevent the past from repeating itself. Only through writing and learning can I make sure I don’t miss any of the signs.

        That being said, she did lack an identity. Just not in the ways you mentioned. She was often trying to fit awkwardly into various sub-cultures, always changing her hair and nail color, and always changing her persona. She is a chameleon.

      • dskennan said

        “If only it were that easy, my ex had all of those things and more.”

        Savory tooks the words right out of my mouth. His comment could have easily applied to me 110%.

  20. toughmat said

    Point taken. You’re right I am waiting for the epiphany. I should be mature enough to realize there are no epiphanies. Mickey, first of all please elaborate on how it is me making myself miserable? I agree with you but I want to know what you mean. And no borderlines are capable of being emotionally available? Then my ex does not have borderline and only suffers from ptsd with certain traits of bp that come out at times. I think making the diagnosis has become another obsession of mine.

    • MickeyD said

      Actually Mat, imo, there is an epiphany. It’s when you dig deep within and realize what it is you are needing out of this relationship, why you are so hung up on this one person, when you beat yourself up constantly trying to figure out what you could have done differently. When I realized (after thousands of letters written to self), this ONE man (NPD man btw) that I was willing to die for (commit suicide if he wouldn’t love me) was my father….the man who just could not love me, or honor me, or accept me. The man who just kept on abandoning me and I had to PROVE that I’m the one he should be loving. This disordered man was my Father in disquise. Once I realize that….I found my peace. Is it still hard to wrap my head around??? Yes, but I refuse to live in denial and misery any longer thinking it’s me, when in reality, it was HIM who could not love (both my Father and this man duplicate I managed to find…one of many). Granted, I developed my own inability to truly love, and my own personality disorder through my horendous upbringing…..what did someone say? What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger? Try being a disordered personality, loving and obsessing over another disordered personality. Yikes.

      MickeyD

      • savorydish said

        You don’t have to be BP, to know what it’s like to have a parent who can’t be there for you the way you want them to be. Ironically, we are drawn to each other because of this common bond we share. Sadly, this is why our relationship is doomed to fail. BPs/NPs/HPs end up hurting the ones who understand them the most.

    • savorydish said

      Think of it like trying to fill a broken vase with water. You are in denial, so you keep pouring water in thinking it will stay full. You convince yourself that you have an unlimited source of water but you don’t. Just enough water stays in the vase to give you the illusion that the vase can still hold water. The cracks are evident but you choose to ignore them. Instead of buying a new vase, you stay with broken one. Thus making yourself miserable.

      • Sinn said

        Yeah, but every r/s is like that. Eventually, TRUST comes in and you can fix the broken vase to hold water (or at least don’t go running off screaming that this was the worst vase in the whole world and the person who bought it must be a pedo), but depending on whatever Cluster-B type you’re dealing with, you’re either bashed as it’s your fault the vase it broken and thus your needs/intentions should always be open for strict review (HPD), I need to really consider checking out of a loser that can’t maintain a simple vase (NPD), or “I love you so much, I will buy you a brand new vase and we will have the best flowers to the best garden—next day—I’m sorry you caught me cheating” (BPD). Correct me if I’m wrong here about it not being the person’s fault for ignoring the cracks in the vase if each person was accountable for the r/s? BPDers lead you onto no-win situations b/c they are emotional COWARDS full stop. They run away b/c everyone makes it easier for them to, which is hard for people who are fully committed. Then you get burnt HARD, and folks wonder why you can’t just move on. A BPDer will make you work more than you EVER had in your life, and then hate your either for that work or simply anyway.

  21. MickeyD said

    “bps do not present themselves as being emotionally unavailable. When you are in the thick of it, they come on strong.”

    SD you’re right about that. Considering we lack an identity going into this newfound relationship…..to make you like us (and to try to make this thing work), all we have is to mirror you perfectly. What you like, we like. What you want to do, we want to do. Where you want to travel, so do we! It almost feels magical (to us too btw, we’ve now adopted a new point of reference), this is ALL subconscious however, not a stunt or malicious. After awhile though….this gets so hard to keep up, an identity that is not really us (even though we really don’t know who we are, but not quite certain ‘this’ is it) and something we’ve maintained just to keep you….and yes, suddenly you pull back a little….our defenses go up, the shit comes down. Suddenly we think you’re not into us anymore and we have to get out of this thing before you leave us first. We’ve tried soooo hard to be everything YOU want and now you’re leaving us. This is where you’re standing there saying, ‘what just happened’???…things were going so well’.

    All very bizarre I know….just speaking for the disorder, as I’ve been there, done that.

    Mickey

    • MickeyD said

      This is where you’re standing there saying, ‘what just happened’???…things were going so well’.

      I guess I should elaborate…..we are feeling the SAME way. Everything was going so well, going places together, phone calls before bed every night, travel plans…..suddenly you ‘pull away’ because something is not feeling right (feels right but almost too right…I get that), so when you pull away to get some space….ie no phone call for 2-3 days….we see abandonment in glaring red letters. You can’t even convince us the reason you didn’t call for 3 days….you’re like a faucet (either full on, or full off)…there is no slow drip.

      Mickey

      • savorydish said

        Mickey,

        When I read your posts, I feel like I have finally met someone who totally gets what I went through. It’s one thing to read about it but to hear it from a BP feels like validation. If only these words had come from my ex, then maybe my soul would feel less angst and resentment. I was never angry that she left me. I was angry that she cut me out of her life and made me feel like I was nothing to her. To hear you vaidate everything makes me feel a whole lot better. Thank you.

      • dskennan said

        I echo what SD posted below. Thank you, Mickey.

      • Sammy C said

        MIckey D I have already told you how much I am glad yopu are here…..I am the hated one for how I type and communicate but believe you me I am smart as a whip , and I have much love in my heart ….Just no more for people who Brain Brakes don’t work….Go Mickey Go , Keep making me understand , Always remember Mickey all I, Sammy want to do is Understand.!

      • savorydish said

        Sorry, Sammy.

        Just trying to keep the thread on track. Nothing personal. Your comments are spot on, but sometimes a little hard to follow.

  22. MickeyD said

    Dear SD,

    The thing is, I understand what’s going on in these relationships (can’t always articulate myself the way I would like) but please know, I’m on your side, I understand and will do my best to explain it from the (true) BPD frame of reference.

    MickeyD

    • savorydish said

      Actually, you articulate it perfectly. It’s as if you were there. And thank you so much for your support, it has a healing effect. After a year of being attacked by my ex and her proxies, I am a little battle-worn. Your validation has brought peace to my soul.

    • Driver said

      Yes, MickeyD..thank you!

      I’ve been reading through the whole site and your stories, comments, explanations, etc…have been “just what the doctor ordered”. It’s very comforting to hear that I wasn’t the reason (or at least the sole reason) of how or why a relationship ended.

      I received no real closure and I felt as though I was left “twisting in the wind” after everything was so great from the beginning. I was probably too much of a “white knight” and she ended up going back to the abuser (NPD?). Who knows.

      Thank you again and I’ll keep reading.

  23. MickeyD said

    “BPs/NPs/HPs end up hurting the ones who understand them the most.”

    Alleluia!!!

  24. MickeyD said

    “BPDers get their fix from you and RUN..that’s all they do-hit and run..”

    I’ve been married 12 years, would hardly classify that as a “hit & run”. As far as the statement regarding ‘strong’ and ‘weak’ men, it’s very common for BPD’s to see in black and white….I may not have explained it in a way that is understandable, but that is the way I see them. The man who only wanted sex from me….unless you’ve ever been with a somatic male narcissist, you wouldn’t have any idea what I’m talking about. Those kind of men ARE out there and I believe trying to recover from a situation like that is the same, if not more difficult, than recovering from a BPD relationship.

    Mickey

    • Sinn said

      BPD’s and NPD’s feed each other though. Wasn’t trying to equate to your situation and you have to say you’re one of the few exceptions to the rule, but you did still classify dudes only out for sex as STRONG men and the lovey-dovey types as WEAK. It could’ve been your state of mind at the time, but many of us have seen the pattern of our exes doing the same thing, again, BPDers create players or at least feed them. If there were more people that valued people who were genuine with their feelings and wasn’t trying to show off so some weak woman can get her “other side of the coin” cheap emotionless sex fix, the dudes that actually try to listen to what you lot keep on about with emotional connections wouldn’t feel so cheated in the end, as you feed the REAL men (STRONG), who really aren’t that strong at all, just lurkers there when you’re numb from taking advantage of dudes that soak up all your overwrought emotional geysers. Not you personally, as again, you are one of the exceptions, but you still admit the struggle.

    • Sinn said

      And no, trying to win, evoke, or force someone to love or care for you who has shown they don’t/won’t/or can’t express those feelings is not harder to recover from than someone who rains down emotional states onto you, makes a connection and fears the same connection eventually engulfing them and betraying you for it. Not even close, the first puts all the cards in the Narc’s hands, to which a strong person just would not want to do (not to say that you aren’t, but w/o sex, what is the appeal of a NPD b/s something pretty shallow such as his money or power?) to keep their own sanity and stable r/s parity. BPD’s initially make it seem like they’re going to be there for the long haul (and some do) and you all plan and plot and soak up all the time in the world like it’s free, then stab you in the back over some weak shit and smear you to get away with it. I’ve read many other blogs b/s this one.

      To almost a tee, young or old (with some empathetic exceptions) this is what they do. So they go cold and run to an NPD and get frustrated that they’re not the center of his/her universe, b/c they fucked over the person with genuine feelings out of that “engulfment” crap, and either rebound after betraying the person in whatever way facilitates the hoover, w/o changing after the honeymoon, or they drain another sensitive person. Relationship to relationship back to back to back w/o self-reflection unless some sort of schism happens. You would think this was some pathetic 50’s “romance” movie abut the flaky young woman, until you’ve lived it. Nah, not even close.

      • MickeyD said

        I’m not going to get in a pissing match over who gets hurt worse in these types of relationships….imo, the NPD has a lot of the same characteristics when it comes to ‘pretending’ to fall in love…you don’t have to be a weak person to fall into their trap and get severely scarred. Women and men are different too in how they perceive and relate to any given PD they’re trying to get close to. We’re all different given our backgrounds etc. and how we fell into the arms of a PD in the first place. NPD’s make it seem like they’re “in it for the long haul” too…until you find out he’s got engulfment fears, he cheats, and has been using you the whole time.

        Again, using terminology such as ‘you all’ and ‘you lot’ is judgmental and inaccurate (I’m sorry you’ve been burned, but it wasn’t by me)…we are not all the same. Also, I don’t ‘go cold and run to an NPD’….I happened to ALWAYS find myself with an NPD (thanks to my ubringing by an NPD father, this is all I know and am naturally attracted to it), not by choice, just happened to fall into these relationships time and time again. Ultimately I chose the less dramatic path and married the more respectable, considerate, kind hearted man (CoD yes, but…anyway) who I have managed to stay with for 12 years and going strong….so, life with a BPD/genuine guy IS possible….ultimately the ass is definitely NOT who this BPD wanted, just had to spend years and a lot of heart-ache trying to figure it out.

        Mickey

      • savorydish said

        If I may step in as thread moderator, I think both of you have valid points. Sinn and I are sensitive to the notion that being a nice guy equals a weakness. We are aware that is how we find ourselves in these dysfunctional relationships. You seem to have the same problems, which is why you are able to be sympathetic.

        Unfortunately, being kind-hearted does attract people who are damaged (BPD, NPD, rape survivors). Sadly, that leads to the misery that you have read on these pages. BPD and NPD are different branches of the same tree. My borderline ex was very narcisistic/histrionic. Psychologists like to put disorders into nice neat bundles, but (in reality) PDs are very messy. In the end, we are all trying to figure out what went wrong.

        So we have two choices, stay away from relationships altogether or find a way to make it work. The latter is no joy ride, but it can be done. But I would strongly suggest that people know what they are getting into. That’s why this blog exists. If a person is in denial and living in delusion, there is zero chance. If someone is willing to accept the cold hard truth, there is hope.

      • savorydish said

        I guess what I’m trying to say is we all get hurt in these relationships. They are toxic by nature. It is always the people who have survived a lifetime of pain that go on to endure more pain or cause pain onto others. Without treatment/recovery, the cycle of pain will go on. The stigma will grow. So I agree there is no point to argue who has endured more suffering. The question is what are you (all of us) going to do about it?

  25. Sinn said

    Yeah SD, I’m not a martyr so I never wanted to go into a pissing contest about which of us suffers the most pain. Just being in my ex’s shoes a bit, I understand a lot of the hopelessness and pain they must go through in having emotions rage against them like wildfires, both the good and bad. I’m also not insecure about being a “nice guy”. I’m built like a college linebacker, and hit the gym more after the breakup, so there’s no STRONG vs WEAK notions to be had. I’ve shrugged off many sluts, as I am attractive, to try to find a woman with some depth. It is my choice, to have something deeper. I believe a person that can shrug away base pleasures for growth is a million times stronger than a dude that uses women for sex and a billion times stronger than women that go along with that to hate both the man, nice guys, and themselves later. You already know what you have and what it can do w/in a month of getting together. I also tire of “nice guys” having to be the emotional garbagemen later.

    My main problem w/BPD’s is that they love to string you along to completely cut you off later. Meaning, they will do anything to earn your trust, and all of the love and sincerity that comes from it, to completely destroy it later if they get overwhelmed, scared, or whatever it is that starts that fire in their heads that they have to cool off. Normal people trust their partner when they’re feeling upset about things. BPD waifs constantly sweat the small stuff, then go silent or to someone else when the big stuff comes along, times which makes normal people simply nervous or anxious; BPD waifs turn it into a full fledged crisis (old and young) and wants to either run or destroy something in this “mode”. Yeah, they’re still human, and they have the choice to stay or cheat or run or slander or all of the above, but the waif always finds that “White Knight” beforehand or enablers to shield all burden. And there is a burden when you give your heart to another, but love and trust makes that burden far lighter than BPD’s ever realize. They’ll go on and on and on and on about their fears of infidelity on YOUR end, but don’t bat an eye if that’s how they solve problems on theirs, meaning you gave your soul to shit.

    Second, they NEVER cache good/great days. They don’t exist for them after that day b/c they don’t trust. It’s like a flip of a coin to see which always/never is going to be thrown at you out of nowhere lol, usually after really great emotionally transcendent days (and this is HER saying it). It’s like the more they love you, the most they distrust you (mothers too, after I do something great for her or in school an argument usually happens SAME WEEK). I will never figure out what it is, or do they not want anyone to be considered more apart of their heart and emotions as they are, but BPD’s have an addiction to cutting you down, or at least lowering expectation on trust, but raising expectations on performance. You never see this in the honeymoon period though, so by the time the cryfits and always/never happen, you two have shared an awful lot and you, being the STRONG nice guy, doesn’t want to just quit. I can work, but the BPDer cannot trust anything but their own decisions in the moment…which is not in conjunction with any previous moments until the pain of their rasher actions hits home.

    It’s just a matter of coping methods and trust. Most BPDers obsess about themselves (weaknesses) , their loved ones, and the worst case scenario. Unfortunately, they are usually attractive and somewhat successful, so there’s never a period where they HAVE to do some reflection and get to the crux that their responses are both not what they would tolerate happening to them and are extremely overwrought or inappropriate for the “triggering” incident. Trying to instead say that they suffer more than everyone and trying to be martyrs keeps them and everyone they interact with in the fog, and exposes nice guys as CoD’s with their own issues of having to be parents to their emotionally wrecked/deficient parents growing up and needing just an anchor, which the waif does a great fake at being. They’re stupid enough to proclaim “true love still exists”, and “women like this is why i’m not a player” and the waif cheats or cuts him down over r/s cold feet or a rut caused by overwhelming BPD emotional releases over minor things. But If I need to get checked to make a sympathetic one feel better, know my place in this was not to say I’ve experienced more pain than a BPD…not even close. It’s just I know with how hard they burn, they’ll NEVER (yeah I said it), without professional help, have enough gas for the long run, but they will leave everyone that loves them EMPTY with their bullshit, shifting loyalties and personalities and lack of contriteness and reflection. That’s an internal hell I wouldn’t wish on anyone.

    • savorydish said

      I totally get it. We’re probably in the same boat, which is why we are all here. I didn’t mean to suggest you were insecure. But these relationship do have you question whether or not there is a downside to being a “nice guy”. And then people wonder why there are so many assholes out there. Show me a person who is emotionally cold and I will show you a person who has been emotionally damaged. I am trying to remember what it was like to be kind and generous. But with every dysfunctional relationship, it gets harder and harder. You are taught that kindness is rewarded in kind, but with PDs that is rarely the case. They take and they take and then leave you on the side of the road.

      • MickeyD said

        “I am trying to remember what it was like to be kind and generous. But with every dysfunctional relationship, it gets harder and harder.”

        So the goal is to stay out of these relationships. It’s easy to say watch for the red flags, ha…when you were born and raised by red flags, taught the red flag way of life, eat, breath and sleep red flags, loved by the red flag dysfunctional brand of loving (father), punished by the red flags….it’s hard to look at a green flag (or even a yellow one for that matter) and not think it’s some type of alien, and something that can and might hurt us more than we’ve already been hurt (how cany you possibly know what a green flag has to offer when our values and beliefs were set in ‘red’, it’s all we know). Granted I’m BPD, by default (on this blog at least) I am the hated one. The thing is, I’m no different than anyone else here who has fallen for the personality disordered. I’ve been led on, mirrored perfectly, promised true love….and then left to pick myself up off the ground battered, hurt and bruised by men who never were capable of anything more than a superficial type of relationship in the first place. The minute you say “I love you back” is the second they have cut you off and no longer want you. I guess where we screw up is when we think we are the one who they have chosen, they’ve told us they love us, want us, that we’re different than anyone else they’ve ever known, they say they care for us….then, gone. I’ve been forced to look at both sides of the same coin however, I’ve had to see what part I play in these relationships (given my personal disorder) and what part the NPD has played…and figure out who owns what so I can fix what belongs to me, and quit trying to blame and fix someone who has their own issues seperate of mine. This is when your healing starts (I believe), when you quit blaming, shaming, etc. and work with what you’ve got, the only thing you’ve got….YOU, the only person that truly matters in the whole scheme of things. I wish us ALL healing.

        Mickey

      • savorydish said

        I don’t hate anyone with BPD. I just hate the ones who have hurt me and then acted like it was nothing. Will I ever forgive them? Time will tell. I’m too busy living my life to forgive them. For now, I am content to blame and shame them on this blog, so I don’t bring it into my real life. It has to go somewhere. And I don’t want to bottle it up. Writing here has helped me to cleanse my system. Outside this blog, no one knows what I’ve been through.

        As far as red flags go… I see them everywhere. I am hyper-aware. I try to avoid women who have the red flags, but they seem to find me. I swear PD women have radar for me. All I can do is work on myself and hope that I find a woman who has done the same for herself.

      • Sinn said

        No worries SD, you’ve never insulted me or even tried here, the “insecure” was just a general point of devaluation thrown at nice guys a bit. Nah, that was just an answer to waif borderlines that I get it and it still aint cool lol. Yeah, fighting the urge to go transactional in r/s’s now b/c people are more and more shallow, but it’s hard.

  26. MickeyD said

    “So I agree there is no point to argue who has endured more suffering. The question is what are you (all of us) going to do about it?”

    Well SD, I think we’re doing it. We read, we educate ourselves, we reach out, ultimately we are each trying to heal and help ourselves. The pain is excruciating when these relationships rupture…it’s core hurt, and it sucks. I don’t believe one can ever *completely* heal from the pain of one of these relationships, we can only learn from it and hope to the heavens we’ll be smarter the next time around (and look for those red flags). When hurt turns to hate is when we become bitter…and bitterness does not look good on anybody, I’ve noticed. We stay strong and keep moving forward….lending a hand (like you so graciously do here) to others suffering, and in the process, helping yourself.

    Mickey

    • savorydish said

      Everything you say is so spot on, it makes it hard to believe you suffer from BPD. Not an ounce of delusion. If only other BPs,could be as lucid. You are living proof that BPD can get better with the right treatment. Maybe not completely healed but enough to acknowledge the pain. That alone allows for less bitterness and more healing. And yes, I think we should all help each other. This blog has become my group therapy. This blog was really just a way for me to vent, but it has given me so much more, thanks to all of you.

      • Sammy C said

        You are welcome buddy @ Savory Dish , I grow stronger each day . I won’t lie and say I don’t still think of this person with total anger and dismay and contempt , but I am much, much better now because I came here and found this place .

    • Driver said

      MickeyD, I appreciate you being here with us. You are giving us a little insight on how the whole process can create a “domino effect” (from BPD and NPD relationships to BPD and NON relationships).

      It at least gives us an understanding and a little knowledge of how our relationships transpired.

      I know I was left shaking my head with a lot of unanswered questions at the end of my relationship. I, at least, now having a better understanding (or a start). It wasn’t all ME on why the relationship didn’t work out.

      Thank you.

  27. MickeyD said

    “For now, I am content to blame and shame them on this blog, so I don’t bring it into my real life. It has to go somewhere.”

    LOL SD…..I hear you, whatever works my friend. As far as forgiveness, I don’t blame you there either, there’s no way in hell I’m going to forgive someone who hurt me to the very core….I’ve tried, I just can’t (all the way to the roots of my father). I also don’t believe the therapeutic approach to “forgiveness is not about them, it’s about you” (I get it, just not doin’ it). I’ve managed to find my peace, and my own (self) forgiveness, and it goes a long way in trying to get to the place of understanding, contentment and trust. I believe you are well on your way.

    Mickey

  28. toughmat said

    Been a minute. I guess I wanted to give you all a break. Ill give you the latest. We have not been in contact for 15 days and I have not seen her since Aug 7. She left me with messages saying that she will never see me the same again, and that I betrayed her the whole relationship behind her back (this is because of the facebook stuff she read). I apoligized for some of my mistakes in the relationships including not cutting the female out immediately when my ex felt uncomfortable (still not sure about that), for telling my friends our problems and my problems with her instead of addressing them directly with her, for allowing myself to feel guilty instead of see her side faster and doing what I could to ease her pain. I am aware now that her love tests when she felt slighted were because she was hurting, not because she wanted to make my life hard. But now, its very hard. I know she is battling health stuff and I want nothing more than to go be there with her and for her. I know she is getting a lot of love and attention from others, including a few new men (not sure at the extent of it). It stings like crazy. What stings the most is I went from hero to way worse than zero. I care for this girl more than anything and my love seems to be growing each day apart. I saw a new therapist and she talked about me finding my self worth and how I want to be treated in life. I liked the therapist because she didnt tell me what to do or what will happen. She said I need to focus on myself, give it time and space regardless, and if I decide I want to be with my ex I can present myself stronger and at greater peace. Perhaps I will never want to be with my ex, but she respects that I cant force myself to move on and there are good reasons why I have not yet (even though it drives me crazy). My ex really did have so many endearing qualities, and despite my constant reminding myself of the hardships, I still want her. I can already see SD’s blood boiling when I say that. Perhaps my borderline (if she is that) is worth the work. Perhaps not. Ill let some more FOG clear and see what happens. The main thing is to work on myself now I guess.

    • savorydish said

      No, my blood isn’t boiling. You are making the same mistakes I made. I would only be mad at myself. You’re in denial and that is a stage we must all go through. I can only say that time makes all the difference in the world. But how quickly you recover depends on the choices you make. Good luck.

  29. toughmat said

    Ya I am sure recovery would be going a lot faster if I just did my best to look at her in a poor light. For some reason I cant, and I believe part of it is because she was so great much of the time. I also think I am in denial about some of the aspects of the relationship and believe that I can change them if I were to have another shot at it. Is that what you mean by being in denial?

    Btw I got this book called Boomerang Love by Lynn Melville which is about dating borderlines. Anyone read it?

  30. MickeyD said

    Well Mat, I wont wish you luck, luck to me is pulling the arm on a slot machine and hoping for all 7’s. To get through one of these takes every ounce of self understanding and patience you can muster. Even if you did get her back, she wouldn’t be able to love you and treat you any different than she already has….you would just end up right back here, feeling worse than you do now (because 2nd time around you will have sacrificed even more of yourself to make it work). Make choices that benefit your well being, what can you do for YOU today that doesn’t include memories and ruminating about her. It’s about YOU now, and YOUR happiness…..treat yourself well.

    Mickey

  31. toughmat said

    I think I have learned a lot about myself and my contribution to the problems. I am not defending her, just saying I understand her fears and concerns now. We all have wounds and hers were easily triggered. When I triggered them it triggered my own. My own wounds are not being good enough, feeling guilty, fear of engulfement. Do I think it was pleasant to be emotionally blackmaijed at times? No. And why do I want to put up with that? I think a lack of self worth. Plus I really value her plus side. Getting to be the white knight. She is a very honest and loyal person.

    • savorydish said

      I’m sure she is a lovely person, but that has nothing to do with you. Singing her praises is not helping you break the addiction. She has been damaged by sexual abuse. And nothing you post here will change that. I’m not trying to devalue her. I’m just giving you the whole picture. The fact that you can’t see the whole picture tells me you are only seeing what you want to see. That is denial.

  32. toughmat said

    Thanks SD. I went out with a couple buddies last night, and there were tons of women but all I can think about is her…how special and unique she is. How I turned my back on her because she asked for space as a love test when all ll I had to do was call her and tell her I dont want space and she has nothing to worry about. Instead I ignored her, precisely when she said if I ignore her she will know what that means. On the night, even though I felt she was fucking with me , I abandoned her. “Instead of seeing others as attacking us, we can see them as fearful. … Fear is really a call for help, and therefore a request for Love.” Ya, I didnt do that.

    Now, I know you are going to say I am doing the “only if I..” game and all and I am aware of that. I dont know what it is… why I am unwilling to mentally and emotionally move on. Hell ya she filled a void and made me feel good because I made her feel good. But she made me feel good too by being supportive, patient, and loving. Im just trying to take it a day at a time. Even if I decided for sure I am going to try to get her back, I would give it time and space. I think there is a part of me that relishes challenges and I am ignoring the advice that everyone says- relationships should not be the main challenge, life is hard enough and you want your relationship to be a safety net.

    • savorydish said

      You’re tangled up in your thinking, but it’s not bringing you clarity. So what you need to do is clear your thoughts. Take lots of walks and remind yourself to take deep breaths. Remind yourself of all the bad things about this relationship. Write it down as I have done. Eventually, the bad thoughts will replace the airbrushed ones. Think about all the times she sabotaged the relationship or created no-win scenarios. Think about the misery she has brought you.

      • savorydish said

        You are ignoring people’s advice, because you are experiencing withdrawal. All you can think about is getting your next fix. In this state of mind, you are resistant to accept the truth. So you distort reality to justify your actions.

      • savorydish said

        This is not love. This is an addiction. Any romantic notions are mere illusions. She may be fucking with you. But you are allowing her to fuck with you.

  33. toughmat said

    Doesnt any relationship between two people carry addictive aspects? I do wonder if I am just so desperate for a fix that I am altering the reality of certain events assuming as though I had more responsibility than I did. Looking back though I definitely could have responded differently in many situations. I dont know what the outcome would have been, but there were definitely moments when I did stay calm and did not let her get to me as if the world was ending. When I did stay calm, things did not escalate. I think my fear of engulfment led me to constantly look at ways out so I could be single and “free” again. I am a grass is always greener guy, and want what I cant have….

    • savorydish said

      ” I am a grass is always greener guy, and want what I cant have….”

      You only want her because you can’t have her. This is not love. This is the fear of losing something you never had aka withdrawal. That is why she has blocked you out. She is like a deer sensing danger in the forest.

      Addiction is not the same as love. You are romanticizing something that is biological in nature. You want what you can’t have, because you think that will make you feel whole. And then once you have it, you think that person must be flawed to love you.

      As you noted, you are dealing with your own engulfment/abandonment swing. Now is the time to figure out why you have these feelings.

      • savorydish said

        Consider the possibility that you are in love with the idea of love as opposed to actually being in love. In BPD relationships both partners are swinging in opposite directions, alternating between push and pull. One person pulling while the other is pushing.

  34. toughmat said

    Thanks, great insight. What would normal healthy love look like? Doesn’t every relationship include some aspect of fear of losing the other person and/or themselves? Its like taking a job but a much bigger commitment.

    • savorydish said

      I’m the last person you should ask. But it’s a good guess to say that healthy love should make you feel healthy. Not shitty and sad. Fear of loss is normal except when it involves you habitually pursuing people who don’t want to be pursued.

      Heartbreak is a fact of life. But if you are knowingly pursuing damaged women, you must consider your own self-destructive tendencies.

      You are pursuing these women even though you know it will end in misery. That is the problem at hand. You are trying desperately to normalize your behavior, but the fact is your pattern of behavior is causing you grief.

  35. toughmat said

    I wouldnt say Im pursuing “these” women, just this one. And she did want to be pursued, I was the ambigous one the whole time. Only at the end when she saw that I still could not committ did she pull the restraining order and “no contact please” card.

    • savorydish said

      If I recall correctly, this was your first relationship. So don’t be surprised if this becomes your type. You have something they want and they have something you want.

      The next woman you pursue will most likely bear an emotional resemblance to your last ex. Each time, you will fool yourself into thinking the next one will be different. But they will be the same. If not, you will be the one to run away.

      If a woman has slapped a restraining order on you just because you were ambiguous then she is screwed up. If you can’t see that, then you need help.

  36. toughmat said

    She threatened to slap it because I stalked her. But you are right, she wanted to get back together after she knew I did that stalking which we already discussed is not the same dangerous stalking. I am not defending my behavior, it was obsessive and wrong. I do need help. This thing has dragged out way too long because I have allowed it too. I have to finally come to terms with the polarity of the relationship. I think that is the part I cannot grasp. It is what causes me to defend everything she has said. Our incubated trips and fun times do not equal real love. Real love is giving the partner freedom and privacy and not punishing them if they don’t behave a certain way. Real love is taking responsibility and not looking to make accusations about not being loved enough days after being told how great things are. I have to finally realize the truth you have all been speaking about the nature of my relationship. My love won’t save her. Ill never be able to love her enough. Drama will persist because everyday will be hoops to jump thru. She would say-‘you have had enough on your own whim, I don’t want that’. All because I hung out with the fellas one night. My friend printed out thirteen signs of an abusive relationship. We hit ten.

    • savorydish said

      BINGO.

      This is an abusive relationship. Enough said.

      The restraining order was in reaction to an emotional threat, not a physical threat. Her fear of abandonment causes her to OVER-react to your pursuit.

      It is normal to pursue the one you love, especially when they left you for inexplicable reasons. It is not normal to slap a restraining order on someone who just wants to fix a broken relationship.

      Stop defending her abusive behavior. You are obsessed because she led you to believe she actually cared. Now that she has split you black, she expects you to feel nothing. This is ABNORMAL behavior.

      • savorydish said

        Your obsession is actually an addiction. Both psychological and physiological. When a bp makes a sudden exit, it creates a vacuum. It sucks you in deeper than before.

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