Fucked-Up Women Have a TV Show to Call Their Own

July 10, 2012

I love the show. I hate the women.

These are the women who give other women a bad name. These are women who shit in your heart. These are women who bear a striking resemblance to borderline personalities. Though, on a scale of 1 to 10 (11 being my batshit-crazy ex), these women are probably a 3.

They don’t display the overt effects of trauma caused by years and years of abuse. They’re not shouting “rape” wherever they go. They’re not cutting themselves and then crying themselves to sleep. They seem normal. They don’t look like trouble, but that’s exactly why they are trouble. Girls is a show about high-functioning disordered women.

Make no mistake, these women are seriously fucked up. In one season, I have seen a wide-range BPD behavior. Take the main character. This is a woman who has so little self-esteem, she settles for the douchiest hipster in Brooklyn. Like so many borderline women, she wants the emotionally unavailable A-hole because that is how little she thinks of herself.

He keeps “treating her heart like monkey meat” and she keeps coming back for more. This is a woman who engages in self-destructive acts and then complains to everyone how her life is miserable (professional victim). If it weren’t so funny, it would be obnoxious and draining.

Then there’s the smart and pretty one. The one who looks perfect on the outside, but sabotages a perfect relationship with a guy because he’s too nice. She feels suffocated by his niceness. When her boyfriend finds out how unhappy she is, he breaks up with her.

But she’s so fucked up, she begs and pleads to have him come back. But right when he agrees to come back, she freaks out and ends the relationship herself. Does anybody recognize the Push-Pull game? Or the need to be the one who abandons the relationship before she is abandoned? This is the MO of a fucked-up woman.

Women like this don’t give you black eyes, they just shit in your heart and then go running back into the pants of the nearest douchebag. They mess with your head. They tug on your heart strings. If you treat them like a princess, they will thank you by treating you like shit.

They beg for your attention. But when you give it to them, they accuse you of suffocating them. They only want you when you are unavailable.  In short, they are fucked up beyond belief.

Then there’s the flaky one, the world traveler with a British accent. We are suppose to marvel at her worldliness, but she is probably the most obnoxious of the bunch. Everything about her is overtly pretentious and contrived. Her big hats and absurd antics are all designed to get attention. This one loves head games. On the Cluster B spectrum, this one leans more towards a Histrionic Personality.

In one season, we’ve seen her lure an ex-boyfriend (who just happened to be in a committed relationship) for sex just so she could claim victory. We’ve seen her flirt with a married man and then act like he’s the asshole when he takes the bait. (spoiler alert) And then in the season finale, we find out that she decided to get married on a whim. Does this impulsive/narcissistic behavior sound familiar? If you’ve been reading this blog, it should.

The show presents these young women as the women of their generation. And I certainly credit the creator, Lena Dunham, for capturing these characters with such painfully accurate details. But if these women represent all the women out there, our society is in big trouble. Fortunately, they don’t represent all women. They represent the 2% ers that I have told you so much about.

The show is appropriately titled Girls, because these young women refuse to grow up (arrested development). Like children, they can be manipulative but they are also terribly selfish (me, me, me). Chaos follows them where they go and they never seem to learn their life lessons. Intelligent girls who are clueless in life.

Let’s face it- disordered people make for good TV. On the small screen, it’s all very entertaining. But, in real life, it can be terribly draining and painful. Like the Jersey Shore cast, the women of Girls are a train wreck waiting to happen. And we just can’t stop watching.

55 Responses to “Fucked-Up Women Have a TV Show to Call Their Own”

  1. Zee said

    Make no mistake . . . this show is a CELEBRATION of the lifestyles depicted. It is NOT a criticism.

    • savorydish said

      “this show is a CELEBRATION of the lifestyles depicted”

      A very good point, Zee. It is most definitely a celebration of a dysfunctional lifestyle. But this show is just a small part of a bigger picture. We, as a society, celebrate the Borderline Personality all the time.

      How many girls have a poster of Marilyn Monroe on their wall? How many watch Girls,thinking how great it would be if they could just move to Brooklyn? Just as many who moved to NYC, because they fantasized about chasing emotionally-unavailable men like Carrie from Sex and the City.

      There is nothing cool or edgey about BPD, but the gloss of pop culture makes it so. Making me wonder if people can adopt BPD behavior through watching TV. It’s scary how many people think being fucked-up is a lifestyle choice.

      • Zee said

        I’ll risk getting ideological here in saying that it’s also about a ‘value deficit.’ The woman who writes the show is, no doubt, a typical media industry liberal type. Liberals by and large despise conventional mores and values. This writer’s answer to ‘conventional’ (read: SEXIST) morality is to portray bad behavior as virtuous. The ‘girls’ are on their way toward being ‘liberated,’ so to speak. (From what, who the hell knows.)

        It’s all about vice as virtue, ‘feelings’ in place of reason, spiritual deficit as a badge . . . you know, those wonderful BPD traits!! But with shows like this, those negative traits are held uu as something to aspire to.

      • savorydish said

        I support vice as virtue. Vice in moderation is the spice of life. As long as you can control your vices. As long as you’re not using vice in a self-destructive way or at the expense of another human being. But I agree that there are a lot of fucked up young women out there who confuse dysfunctional behavior with liberation.

        To me, it’s not about morality (subjective). It’s about women who are emotionally damaged but fail to acknowledge that fact. So instead they airbrush their emotional scars with glamour. Beware of women who try too hard to live the fabulous life. These women are covering deep wounds and transferring their pain onto unsuspecting loved ones.

        Girls pretends to be an in-depth look at a generation of women. But it is actually very superficial in it’s exploration. I wouldn’t say the creator is proud of the behavior portrayed on her show. There is some consciousness of how pathetic her life can be. She knows she’s a fuck up, but she is laughing at her own folly. So I give her credit where credit is due. That being said, I do fear that young fucked-up viewers will only see what they want to see.

      • savorydish said

        But I don’t want to make it sound like I’m critiquing Lena Dunham. She is doing what all good writers do. Write what you know. Nobody would tune in to watch happy well-adjusted people. Pathology makes for good tv. If you criticize Girls for celebratin BPs then you have to criticize Madmen and Sopranos for similar reasons. There’s a reason why most good writers are fucked up.

  2. Zee said

    Can’t say I agree with you on supporting vice as virtue. Can’t have your cake and eat it too, as they say. I also believe in objective standards of morality. If everything goes, EVERYTHING GOES. Moral relativism is an un-liveable philosophy. Most of the time, what it really means is, “There is no absolute right and wrong, unless somebody does something wrong to ME.’ But, as I’ve said before, we’re not all here to agree on everything.

    There are in fact a lot of fucked up women who confuse socially harmful behavior with liberation, and po-mo moral relativism plays a large part in their getting away with it. At least that’s my well-informed opinion. We can’t have an absence of standards, and then complain when somebody does something wrong. There’s either a right or wrong, or their isn’t.

    And it’s not what IS right or wrong, it’s the SEARCH for what is right or wrong that matters. The SEARCH for truth makes us a civilized culture, not finding the truth. (As Alan Bloom said.) Problem is, there’s a lot of dingbats out there who promote the idea that there is no right or wrong – so why bother searching. makes a fertile playground for assholes who think they can do whatever they want.

    There’s no such thing as a free lunch, as my 1st year economic professor told me. Everything has a cost, everything has a consequence. Living by an implicit and/or explicit set of rules is the cost of living in a free society.There is no such thing as absolute liberation, and if anone found it, it would resemble tyranny.

    As far as the creator of the show: she’s responsible 100% for what she puts out there. End of story. She made the decision to produce what she produced. She could have told one story; she told another. I think she’s a trash pedaler.

    • savorydish said

      I’m not saying anything goes. Just saying if it doesn’t cause harm, then we are entitled to some vices. But those vices do not include betraying someone’s trust or doing something to harm someone (intentionally or not).I believe in morality. Just not strict morality.

      Lena Dunham is responsible for the content she puts out there. But individuals are responsible for their own behavior. I watch Girls regularly. But even I can discern between entertainment and morality. Watching Girls won’t make you a BP. But if you’re a BP, the show might encourage your behavior. That is the nature of a mind that has been emotionally-arrested.

      • savorydish said

        In the absence of a moral standard, there is always common sense. Treat others as you would have them treat you. And if you screw someone over then you are inviting bad karma into your life. What goes around comes around.

  3. Zee said

    “Treat others as you would have them treat you.”

    That is actually a moral standard. It is a basic description of a moral tenet. Common sense flows FROM a basic understanding of morals, not the reverse. It is a perversion of Enlightenment thought that we can treat one another well without some objective standards of behavior.

    What goes around comes around is also a moral idea, based largely upon Eastern religion. It is similar to the Christian idea that one reaps what one sows. These notions are not born in a vacuum. They come from somewhere.

    One cannot deny the existence of objective moral standards and then be offended when someone treats them badly. If all standards of morality were uniquely individualistic, everyone could do whatever they wanted, That’s called ANARCHY.Most people in a civilized culture have a shared view about what is and what is not acceptable behavior.

    Speaking of morals . . .

    I like Scott Peck’s definition of an evil person: an evil person is someone who, by seeking to assuage their own unresolved emotional turmoil, knowingly causes emotional or spiritual harm to others.

    I’ve gotten in trouble for using the term ‘evil before, mostly because it offends the general strain of political correctness. Regardless, I do know one thing: Peck’s definition will probably keep me out of trouble as far as BPD’s go. Dysfunctional is one thing; EVIL is another.

    • savorydish said

      This may very well be an issue of semantics. We might be closer to agreement than you think. What is important to extract from this philosophical discussion is the well-documented fact that borderlines live tragic lives filled with chaos and ANARCHY.

      This is not a lifestyle choice. This is the toxic mess that oozes out of UNTREATED trauma. BPs are magnets for bad karma. And those who are swallowed by the vortex, will also be affected by this toxic karma. That is why it is so important to keep a safe distance from untreated borderlines.

      Want to know why NONS are so angry? Because they have been infected by the toxin. It is in our bloodstream. An untreated borderline has a talent for ruining people’s lives in a relatively short time. They hit and run. More will be said on this later.

      Critics can throw stones at this blog, but society has warned us about BPD since ancient times. In Greek mythology, it was the story of the Sirens. In modern times, we have movies like Chinatown and Casino. Even TV shows like Girls can teach us to avoid these women like the plague.

      You can call these morality plays. While I like the idea of a moral standard, I am uncomfortable with the word “morality”. It has been tainted by too many people who have used religion to manipulate the masses. I prefer a more secular nomenclature, myself.

      In my eyes, the problem is not the lack of morality. But the failure to address deep psychological issues. Scott Peck’s quote says it all-
      “An evil person is someone who, by seeking to assuage their own unresolved emotional turmoil, knowingly causes emotional or spiritual harm to others.”

      Think about all the evil people in the world: Hitler, Charles Manson, Jim Jones. These were all people who suffered extreme emotional turmoil. But instead of resolving it, they chose to unleash that turmoil onto the world. This is what fucked up people do.

      Evil equals unresolved emotional turmoil. This is all that needs to be said.

      • Zee said

        “BPs are magnets for bad karma. And those who are swallowed by the vortex, will also be affected by this toxic karma.”

        Proven by my own personal experience. It’s absolutely uncanny how borderlines bring the four horsemen wherever they go.

      • savorydish said

        “It’s absolutely uncanny how borderlines bring the four horsemen wherever they go.”

        Want to know how to identify a borderline personality? Look for the trail of destruction and jaded exes. Look for a history of drama. BPs like my ex jump from city to city, country to country. She is running away from her reputation, but she is also spreading her toxin like Typhoid Mary.

        One might argue that she isn’t intentionally fucking people over, but that is irrelevant. The point is she IS fucking people over. She knows she is fucking people over.

        And yet, she has the audacity to deny all wrong-doing. She suppresses all knowledge of her wrong-doing. And then to add insult to injury, she masquerades as a social activist and martyr-saint. She is a big fake. In short, she is living a lie. She is perpetuating that lie. And THAT is what makes her evil.

      • savorydish said

        The Fear of Abandonment is the main source of toxin and evil, when it comes to BPD. It sounds like a melodramatic statement. But outsiders must understand that untreated borderlines will do anything to avoid abandonment, including fucking you over if they (irrationally) think that you might fuck them over. Ironically, they must abandon you before you abandon them.

        Observe how the women from Girls, treat nice guys. Lena Dunham’s character (Hannah) goes so far as writing in her diary about how Marnie should “cut off the limb, and let the stump heal”. This is Hannah’s “passionate” advice on how to break up with a nice guy.

        In a previous episode, she joking calls him a “pussy”. This is how fucked-up women talk about their nice boyfriends. Notice the lack of emotion and sympathy. Breaking someone’s heart is just like cutting off a limb. Then Hannah wonders why she ends up with men who treat her heart like “monkey meat”.

        See how nice guy Charlie breaks up with Marnie when he discovers Hannah’s brutal diary entry. Then watch Marnie hoover him back just so she can be the one who breaks his heart. These are the fucked-up mind games that fucked-up women play.

        For BPs love is a power play. Nothing more. They need men, but secretly they hate them. So this is how they punish them. Evil equals unresolved emotional turmoil.

        Love it or hate it, Girls provides insight into how fucked-up women think. For more insight, read this delightful article written by an angry woman from Vanity Fair.
        See how she describes Charlie’s niceness as “skeevy”. Borderline women like using words like “skeevy” and “creepy”. It points to a troubled past with men. Don’t be surprised to find evidence of childhood sexual abuse.

      • savorydish said

        Sure, even I admit Charlie is a little too eager to please. But when you love a woman, why wouldn’t you want to go out of your way to please her? But that is why this is so painful to watch. Because I know what it’s like to treat a woman better than she treats herself and then have her spit on your face. Or laugh at you behind your back.

        To the Charlies of the world, I feel for you. And from my own experience, I beg you to not turn into a jaded asshole. Do not let the fucked-up women of the world turn you bad. Fuck the Juli Weiners of the world.

        You’re not skeevy, but you do need to work on your self-respect. Stay the nice guy you’ve always been. Just find someone who appreciates your love and kindness. Miserable bitches don’t deserve you. And you can not change them with your love.

      • savorydish said

        To the Juli Weiners of the world, do mankind a favor and stay away from us. Your Man Hate is strong. If you’re gonna lump men into two categories of “skeevy”, then it is best that you go seclude yourself to the island of Lesbos where you can live in misery with your fellow Man Haters. We know you’re fucked up, but there’s no need to fuck up others.

      • savorydish said

        Anybody else notice the pattern of Man Haters who become writers? These putrid souls are never content to live in self-misery. They must spread their Man Hate so everyone is as miserable as they are. BPD is a viral disease.

      • savorydish said

        It’s interesting to note that Juli Weiner of Vanity Fair, is one year out of college and yet she thinks she knows everything there is to know about men. Where have we seen this kind of naive arrogance before? Wanna know what it’s like being in a relationship with a miserable bitch? Just read her article and take a taste. Ms. Weiner shows all the red flags that you should be picking up on. Single men, beware. Avoid the Juli Weiners of the world like the plague.

  4. Zee said

    “Avoid the Juli Weiners of the world like the plague.”

    You mean neurotic, urban elitist twats? I’ve had my fair share of them. You can throw a dart blindfolded and hit one with a dart where I live.

    There really is a lot more to this show than meets the eye. It’s a description of an enitre cultural millieu. One that, I’m afraid, I’ve experienced. The po-mo generation is in full swing now. There’s no right, no wrong. Truth is just a ‘construct.’ There’s only FEELINGS.

    But people who do bad things to me are BADDIES!! Right??

    The Julie Weiners of the world are dangerous because they ENABLE the behavior of the REAL BADDIES out there. The human tornadoes. They package it up all nice and shiny, and when it goes wrong, they treat it with pseudo-thererapeutic claptrap or blame everyone else.

    The Nice-Guyism is a whole other thing. Some guys are in fact too nice, and usually, these are the guys who get burned by Cluster B’s. They’re not hard to find, which is why Borderlines typically spend their early years swinging from player/jerks to Nice Guys.

    The thing about Nice-Guyism, is that Nice-Guys really aren’t that ‘nice.’ I recommond the book No More Mr. Nice Guy. It’ll surprise some of you. And like any useful book, it’s probably not be what you think.

    http://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1342041484&sr=8-1&keywords=No+more+mr+nice+guy

    • savorydish said

      “You mean neurotic, urban elitist twats? I’ve had my fair share of them. You can throw a dart blindfolded and hit one with a dart where I live.”

      Amen, brother. I love the big city, but I feel like neurotic women are crawling all over this place. What is it about big cities that attract fucked up women??? And I particularly despise women like Juli Weiner who pose as an authority on men, when it is most likely her relationships are a joke. If you wanna know what a Man Hater sounds like, look no further.

      Now on the topic of nice guys, I totally agree. Some guys are too nice. Charlie is too nice. But everybody on that show is a caricature. I like to think I’m a nice guy, but that niceness is eroding with every fucked-up woman who fucks me over. I’m not ashamed to treat women well. But I am ashamed that I put up with all the bullshit that I did. I allowed someone to walk all over me. That will always be a source of shame.

      I haven’t read that book, so I can’t say much about it. But I’m a little skeptical of any person who teaches others “how to be a real man” and then makes appearances with Bill O’Reilly and Rush Limbaugh. There must be a balance between being too nice and being a total Ahole.

      • savorydish said

        “The Julie Weiners of the world are dangerous because they ENABLE the behavior of the REAL BADDIES out there.”

        Yes. Yes. Yes.

        Juli Weiner, Sady Doyle, Mina Jade and Stephanie Hallett are enablers of their own disease. They are spreading their disease via the written word. You call them elitist twats. I call them insecure women hiding behind a facade of pro-feminism. These are women who hate themselves. How can they be feminists if they hate being women? They shit on men, because that is the only way insecure women can feel better about themselves.

        Don’t let the shroud of elitism fool ya. These women are over-compensating for overwhelming feelings of inadequacy and low self-esteem. Their argument is articulate but it bears the markings of an abusive life. They were beaten down by life, so now they feel compelled to beat down others.

      • savorydish said

        The problem isn’t that there’s a surplus of nice guys out there. There isn’t. Are there guys who are too nice? Yes, but the world has got bigger problems than guys who are too nice.

        Fucked-up women have bigger problems than meeting guys who “smother” them with kindness. Fucked-up women turn on nice guys, because kindness triggers feelings of inadequacy. These are women who came from homes where loved ones degraded each other, so nice guys are strange and uncomfortable to them. They feel unworthy of such kindness. They might be right.

        So I don’t think the solution is to convert all nice guys to raging assholes. The solution is to warn nice guys of the dangers of fucked-up women.

        My own policy is simple. If you’re nice to me, I’ll be twice as nice to you. If you shit in my heart, god help you. I can be as mean as I am nice. That being said, I’ve put up with a lot of bullshit from fucked-up women. So you would have to be a pretty mean asshole to unleash my fury. You would have to go out of your way to fuck me over for me to focus my hate on you. What goes around, comes around with interest. Hate begets more hate.

  5. Zee said

    Be decent; don’t take any shit; trust but verify.

    Sounds like a good recipe for manhood, right?

    A ‘Nice Guy’ will let a woman be late as much as she wants. A MAN will tell a woman that the next time she’s more than 10 minutes late, he’s LEAVING. And when she’s late . . . HE LEAVES. A MAN’S time is valuable; a boy’s time is worthless.

    Women test men. It’s what they do. It’s part of Nature. Women want to know who the real men are, and so they throw guys curves to see how much they’ll put up with. A guy who puts up with too much is a wuss and goes in the beta pile. A guy who stands his ground and brooks no nonsense goes in the alpa pile. It’s part of the female sorting process. Don’t blame women for it. It’s the way nature made them.

    With borderlines, this sorting process has gone awry. Up is down, down is up, right is ieft . . . somewhere along the line, their evolutionary processs was short-circuted.

    At least that’s one way of looking at it.

    • savorydish said

      Here’s another way to look at it-

      An emotionally healthy woman doesn’t play mind games. Little girls play games. Only fucked up women test you. A healthy woman would not make her man wait just to see if she can get away with it. If a woman is abusing a man because she thinks he is a wuss then she is officially fucked up. Her primitive instincts have overrided common decency. If you have to give a woman ultimatums to get her to behave properly, then you are with the wrong woman.

      • savorydish said

        It always goes back to arrested development. Child-like behavior from an adult. When you accept this fact, you start to understand why fucked up women act the way they do. I know plenty of women who ended up with nice guys and they have wonderful relationships. To say that all women test men is wrong.

        Speaking of evolutionary process, another reason why borderlines act the way they do is survival. Because of their traumatic upbringing, borderlines have cranked up survival instincts. This is why they can seem almost reptillian. They’re not considering your feelings, because they are focused on survival of themselves and their genetic code. Most women have evolved past this kind of thinking. Not so for a woman whose primitive mind has taken over.

        But you’re right when you say that no man should put up with this behavior. Nice guys should find nice women. Let the children play their games on their own.

      • savorydish said

        Just tweeted by my borderline ex-
        “Trust me, Wilbur. People are very gullible. They’ll believe anything they see in print.” -Charlotte, “Charlotte’s Web”

        No joke. It is not uncharacteristic for BP women to enter the mainstream world of “journalism” to manipulate the masses.

        What was I saying about borderline women who become writers to re-write their sordid past? What was I saying about women like Juli Weiner, Sady Doyle and Stephanie Hallett? The movement to spread BPD thinking through the written word is in full swing. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

        The hardcore BPs were created by trauma. But there is another population of people who will be influenced by the written word of BPs. BPs have a way of recruiting proxies to fight their battles. They have a way of influencing others with their twisted minds.

      • savorydish said

        Brutal is the best way to describe an untreated bp. You will see this brutality when the bp splits you black or abandons a relationship.

        But there are early signs. The veneer of kindness is thin, and is not adequate to hide this brutality. My ex would often snap at me and then quickly apologize. This was brutality poking its ugly head out of the curtain.

        Brutality is a primitive instinct (think of a caveman clubbing you over the head). Sure they might be rescuing animals from the shelter and cheering on African transexuals. But when things get intimate, that’s when the brutality shows itself. Intimacy is the trigger for their brutality.

        If a woman is testing you, that means she is seeing how much you can take. She is waiting for the day when she can pull off her mask.

    • dskennan said

      I was trying to find a point to jump in here…

      The last thing, as a male, you want to be labeled as is a ‘nice guy’. If you need to carry a label, you want to be a ‘good guy’. Nice guys are treated like crap. They are too considerate and ultimately have no backbone.

      I have had enough discussions in the last few years with women who have expressed that the ‘pussification’ of males in the last 20 years is driving them crazy. Part of the point of ‘testing’ males is to try to drive the guy to ‘man up’ and behave like a man with convictions and morals… someone who will actually demonstrate that they have testosterone in their veins.

      I’ve told women outright that the worst thing you can call a decent guy is ‘nice’. Nice guys are friends. Nice guys don’t get laid. Good guys are the ones they want to hang out with. Good guys are the ones they want to sleep with.

      No woman, in the end, disagreed with me.

  6. Zee said

    Seems I touched a sore spot in the theory realm. No worries. We’re all in agreement about the basics here.

    I think a lot of this has to do with the normalizing of pathological behavior. As a culture becomes more permissive, the definition ‘normal’ or ‘decent’ gets wider and wider. What was once thought of as deviant becomes main-stream. What was once considered taboo now elicits yawns. I see shows like Girls as a natural evolution of this process. Again, we can’t have our cake and eat it too. It’s logical that harmfull or pathological behaviors that have been accepted will, in the future, be encouraged. Take the pro-sex arm of the feminist movement ala Amanda Marcote. The ‘sexual liberation’ (I use that term pejoritavely) movement of the 60’s and 70’s has, in the hands of such morons, been turned into a campaign for actively encouraging sexual activity in teenage girls. Never mind the dire (and proven) consequences of adosecent sexuality, such as unplanned pregnancy, increased risk of suicide, STD’s, high-school drop-out rates, drug and alcohol abuse . . . to the Amanda Marcotes and Juli Wieners of the world, increased sexual behavior = some cockeyed notion of liberation distilled from misreadings of Freud and Marcuse.

    I mention this because such notions ALWAYS come from the Left side of the fence in our culture. Where do you think the Juli Wieners and the Amanda Marcotes of the world COME FROM? I’m not looking to start an ideological argument here, but really . . . a lot of what you see on shows like Girls is a direct descendent of 60’s and 70’s dioneysianism injected with a healthy dose of narcissism and contemporary angst. What most of us on this site would view as repulsive behavior, the writer of this show sees as every day stuff.

    Again, I say that this all serves to enable pathological behavior. But I’m not going to argue with the Juli Wieners and Amanda Marcotes of this world. They most likely view BPD as a ‘patriartchal ploy to control women.’ You can’t really discuss human nature with people who think that everyting is a social construct.

    • savorydish said

      Not at all. I enjoy a difference in opinion, it furthers the discussion. I don’t agree with everything you say, but I appreciate the thinking behind it.

      Normalizing pathology is something I’m concerned about as well. The women portrayed in Girls are perfect examples. They may or may not have PDs. But because they grew up in a culture that normalizes pathological behavior, we have youngins replicating PD behavior. Even though they haven’t been traumatized or abused, they follow the same patterns of behavior.

      And I think this has to do with borderlines infiltrating the mainstream media. When a young girl reads an article in Vanity Fair that convinces her that all men are “skeevy”, then that girls grows up with those beliefs. This is not a conspiracy theory. This is BPs trying to get everyone around them to support their dysfunctional behavior. I’ve seen these women recruit fucked up girls from around the world.

      • L.V.X. said

        Lots of excellent insight here.

        I can attest to the fact that Girls represents (along with other shows like Him & Her, Misfits, Skins, etc…) how these little girls are, and are everywhere.

        In my experience they grow up in California, move to New York, LA, or Portland, and live out their dreamlife of being wanderlust whores. Some become feminist others poly others religious others whatever entitles them to their behavior and confirms they as women can behave how they do because that’s just how they feel they are.

        I know SO MANY and meet SO MANY of this SuicideGirl type independent I wanna I feel chick on a daily basis it’s no wonder this shit can be turned into a small-screen series. I have been in every situation depicted in that show, and every minute I watch renders me with a sense of sadness and shame that is only furthered by the opinions of the women who watch and praise it. Californication is a good example too, because once you harbor a mindset like the protagonist in that show, it becomes clear that such is life for many a learned man and such are men for many an any woman.

        It becomes an affirmative go girl pornography for most women, especially those inclined towards feminism, indie music, vegetarianism, latest trendy vice, etc…And know who is to blame for the unhappiness it causes cross-gender-culture-ethnicity-age-group etc…? You and I, who are at one time every guy these Girls are depicted as being with or having been with. Just hope you catch one at a time when you’re the “alpha” asshole instead of the “beta” pining over your ex. Because forever will you be labeled as such, unless of course you suddenly get rich, famous, or well-known in some-status position (and their suddenly “Asshole” ex is no longer fucking them). Then soon enough they’ll be back at expecting shiny objects and adoration.

        I was gonna make this more personal but I’ve already let way too much info out elsewhere. But basically, this is an extremely telling television series. And I don’t see how anyone can view it and actually like ANYONE in the show. All of the characters are pathetic in their own right, yet sadly all of them are people you and I know or have known or even worse have been.

      • savorydish said

        Funny you should mention Californication. My ex and I use to watch that show religiously. I suppose I watched it for the train wreck appeal. But even so, part of me felt uneasy that it celebrated dysfunctional behavior.

  7. Zee said

    I will also add that as people become sexually active at younger ages, girls with BPD (or potential BPD) are probably starting to gain experience in how to use sex as a weapon and for self-medication at an alarmingly young age. Sex is a minefield with BPD’s. Imagine having those mines planted at, say, age 13 or 14? It’s no wonder that so many women with BPD are completely shot out by their 20’s. They’ve already put themselves (and others) through the wringer.

    • savorydish said

      The problem is not sex. The problem is most of those girls were sexualized at a young age. How did that happen? The evidence almost always points to childhood sexual abuse. This is not an issue of morality. It is the effect of childhood abuse that is causing all this pathological behavior.

      • Zee said

        “This is BPs trying to get everyone around them to support their dysfunctional behavior.”

        Yep. Borderlines are ALWAYS trying to recruit a team. When you have experience with it, and you watch it hapenning, it’s alternately creepy and hysterical.

        As an ex significant other of a borderline, I was part of a ‘team.’ Lousy thing to admit, but I’m not so upset about it now. Time and perspective have done their healing.

    • dskennan said

      A decade ago, I was involved with a woman who had, in my opinion, Histrionic Personality Disorder.

      During one heated, early argument, I told her that she should never try to use sex as a weapon with me.

      She responded that ‘women will continue to use sex as a weapon as long as men allow them to use sex as a weapon’.

      I then proceeded to cut her off for a month. After two weeks, it was like watching a de-clawed cat. She had no other tools at her disposal with me. By the end, she was begging me to stop ‘torturing’ her.

      Mind blowing.

      • savorydish said

        Once again, you are hanging out with the wrong women. Seriously. The sooner you accept that… The sooner you will stop being fucked over by histrionic women.

      • savorydish said

        “I’ve told women outright that the worst thing you can call a decent guy is ‘nice’. Nice guys are friends. Nice guys don’t get laid. Good guys are the ones they want to hang out with. Good guys are the ones they want to sleep with.”

        No offense. The only kind of woman you’ll attract with this kind of philosophy is fucked-up women. Nice guys are the good guys. I’m not sure where you separate the two. Nice guys do get laid. They also get married and stay married. They also meet women who don’t sleep around. Nice guys lead nice lives without the drama of dysfunction. I wish I was that nice.

        If you’re only goal is to get laid, you will only attract histrionic types. Trust me. I know this from personal experience. If you’re only using women for sex, then you’re probably not as nice as you think you are. This is not a slight at you. It is valuable insight into why guys choose the wrong women.

        If I were you, I would re-think your approach to life. At some point, we all have to take responsibility for our relationships with fucked up women. It’s not just about them, it’s about us as well. Birds of a feather flock together. At some point, we have to acknowledge our own dysfunction. And that is the hardest part of all.

        If you have a history with fucked up women, you need to ask yourself why? Only then, will you break the pattern.

  8. savorydish said

    Many of you are confusing 2%-15% of the population with ALL women. You need to explore why YOU of all people are trapped in this small circle of fucked-up women, because it is tainting your view of all women. It is preventing you from meeting normal women and having healthy relationships. Does this make any sense?

    • savorydish said

      If all you wanna do is shit on women then this blog is not for you. I do not support misogyny. If that’s your thing, this blog is not for you.

      Finding healthy women starts with adopting a healthier outlook on life. If you can’t see that you are part of the problem then this blog can not help you.

      • savorydish said

        I don’t believe in fighting misandry with misogyny. The criticisms made here are against people who treat other humans like dirt. That is not about gender. That is about common decency.

        If you want to know how to repel fucked-up women, be a nice guy. Treat her with respect and magically over time she will feel suffocated. It works every time. BPD is a disorder. That’s why BP behavior defies logic.

  9. Zee said

    I think there’s a issue here with definitions. There’s nothing wrong with nice people. Nice people are good to be around.

    I think part of it may be that we’ve strayed into cultural criticism. People tend to get touchy in areas like this. There are personal beliefs and ideologies involved. No biggie, really. Stuff like this happens.

    One question has been raised: is there is is there not an objective moral standard by which human behavior can be measured? Some of us think yes, others no. Regardless, no one here seems like the kind of person to go to extremes to prove our claims. In addition, that is a very large argument, and one that I shall not pursue here further, since this not the arena for it. A lot of good is done on this blog, and I don’t want to side-track things or cause contention.

    I think the term ‘Nice’ has been miscontrued. When I wrote ‘Nice Guy,’ what I meant was a certain kind of guy who displays ‘doormat,’ or co-dependent behavior. There are some very complex things tied up in such behavior. For one, I believe that ‘Nice Guys’ aren’t as ‘nice’ as they present themselves to be. They are basically self-serving. The Nice Guy’s secret contract with others is that he will do nice things for them, if they behave the way he wants them to behave. I say ‘secret’ contract, because the other parties are completely unaware of this arangement. In a very real way, ‘Nice Guyism’ is manipulative, although most Nice Guy’s don’t know it.

    I’ve heard women comment that ‘Nice Guys’ are phonies. I think my explanation goes toward explaining this notion. A smart woman will know when a guy is acting not out of selflessness, but because he wants something – even if the guy truly believes he IS acting out of selflessness. Again, there are some very complex things at work here as far as codependency, unresolved issues, etc.

    At bottom, I believe that women are turned off by Nice Guyism because they feel it is a surreptitious way of trying to get what one wants. Whether or not they want to admit it in age of feminism, the majority of women are far more turned on by men who go for what they want in a straightforward and assertive (but not obnoxious) manner.

    I re-state my opinion that there is a sorting process that goes on between men and women. Nature is what it is, and one cannot claim that human beings evolved from the promordial ooze and triumphed on this planet without any corresponding development in psychological processes. Women want strong men, and men want attractive women. Women are attracted to status and power, and men are attracted to nurturing and caring. It’s been this way for a gazillion years, and it’ll take a very long time to change it. Liberal social theorists and ideologues can deny it all they want, but human nature is not as malleable as all that. Evolution takes time, and change is slow, even in a technological age.

    So when I say that women ‘test’ men, what I mean is that Nature is at work within women to sort out the strong men from the weak men. (Do not take offense. I use the terms ‘strong’ and ‘weak’ in an evolutionary sense. I will not resort to political correctness to keep anyone happy.) We no longer live in an age where strength or weakness are revealed by obvious means. None of us has had to kill a wooly manmouth lately. The evolution of Civil Society has necessarily SUBLIMATED this process into social cues fiting for our current environment.

    I believe that most of the ‘sorting’ women do is unconcsious. Only a bitch will be copntinuously late to see if a man puts up with it. Only a complete asshole will put a man down in front of others to see if he will take it. (And these things do indeed happen.) But in the beginning of a relationship, a smart woman’s feelers are out searching for whether or not she has a real man or a wuss. And by REAL MAN, I do not mean prototypical Hollywood type stuff. I mean qualities like inner strength, integrity, trustworthiness, assertiveness, emotional control, work ethic. Any man of any size or cultural background can have these things.

    It is the ‘Nice Guy’ syndrome that sets off a smart woman’s alarms that she may have a wuss on her hands. Again, a prototypical ‘Nice Guy’ is not assertive; he is surreptitious. He does not state what he REALLY wants; he pretends to want something else. He compromises his beliefs in order to keep other people happy. A woman does not necessarily have to ‘test’ for these things. Enough happens in any normal relationships to give e a woman cues as to what kind of man she has on her hands.

    It will also re-state my theory that the evolutionary ‘sorting’ process with Borderlines has been short-circuited. The Borderline seeks not to preserve a real self, but a ‘false’ self. Her belief system, on an UNCONCSIOUS LEVEL, causes her ‘sorting process’ to go awry. Hence, over the long term, she is attracted to abuse, disgusted by kindness, wary of real personal belief and integrity, All of the things that would be attractive to a normal woman are anathema to the Borderline’s maladaptive way of being.

    I used to be a ‘Nice Guy.’ My relationship with a Borderline killed that. I no longer put up with unnaceptable behavior. I state what I want clearly, I operate uncompromisingly on my own personal beliefs, and I do not associate with people who violate those beliefs. (For ANY reason, even if a person happens to be a very attractive female.) I realized that it was my own codependency, with Nice Guyism as modus operandi, that got me into a relationship with a borderline. Now, instead of a Nice Guy, I’m a DECENT GUY who puts up with ZERO bullshit.

    How did I get over my own Nice Guyism/Codependency? I realized that whatever bad things happened to me as a kid, I couldn’t fix them by fixing someone else. There is no way for me to travel back in time and use another person like a hammer to fix whatever happened to me. I had to face the pain HEAD ON, man up, and accept that there was nothing I could do to change the past.

    A relationship with a borderline was my way of trying to avoid my own problems and assuage my broken sense of self. It’s no coincidence that borderline tacticts like idealization and mirroring worked on me. It hurt like hell to look at these things and admit the role I played. But if I didn’t do it, I was bound to wind up with another sickie.There was a lot of shame and embarassment involved in the process, but I did it.I had no choice. Sooner or later, I had to man the fuck up and face myself, or continue volunteering for mistreatment.

    That’s why when a borderline says, “You should take a look at yourself!” my inner response is, ‘Oh, you don’t even know the half of it.”

    • dskennan said

      Zee took the words right out of my mouth.

      Savory’s response to my earlier post isn’t completely off-the-mark, even though my thoughts weren’t communicated in the manner I would have liked. Don’t worry… no offense is taken. If anything, there is a more than a modicum of truth that applies, just not wholly or completely in all cases.

      • Zee said

        “If anything, there is a more than a modicum of truth that applies, just not wholly or completely in all cases.”

        Truth is relative to a CERTAIN EXTENT, but the truth is THE TRUTH. Don’t let anyone talk you out of the truth via the idea that there is no absolute truth. That’s a card trick, and there’s always an agenda behind it.

        I’m always suspicious of people who peddle relativism. The idea that there are few 100% truths is frigging OBVIOUS. Did they have to go to college to learn that?

        Alan Bloom said that, even more important than the ‘truth,’ is the SEARCH for the truth. The SEARCH is what truly enobles us. As human beings in a civil society, we have an obligation to SEARCH for the truth in human relations, art, politics, etc, etc. We might never find it, but we will become BETTER HUMANS in our SEARCH for it.

        If we stop searching for the truth via the idea that there is no absolute truth, we will not become more ‘nuanced’ and ‘diverse’ and what have you. We will simply stop using large parts of our brains and become more stupid. Our beliefs will become more pliable. Standards will dissapear, and in the absence of standards, the lowest common denominator prevails. Just take a look around at our culture.

        This blog is an example of a search for the truth. The people who visit it are on a quest for the TRUTH of what they’ve been through. They might not always get it, but they will learn something and they will be better for it.

        There are a lot of forces out there that DON’T WANT US to know the truth of what happened. They have a vested interest in hiding that truth and twisting it to their purpose. Savory has experienced the wrath of these forces, yet he’s continued on. That really says something.

      • savorydish said

        The TRUTH. It’s a word that gets thrown around a lot around here. But it’s because so many people have tried to deny it or suppress it. My ex has done an excellent job of recruiting proxies. She was hoping if she sent enough angry activist here, I would shut down the TRUTH. But that is more child-like thinking on her part. She has only added more fuel to the fire. Had she acknowledged the TRUTH, I would have shut down this blog months ago. More irony.

        The denial and suppression of the truth makes it clear to me why these people will never get better. My ex is doomed. Until she acknowledges the pain she has caused others, that guilt will eat her from the inside-out.

      • savorydish said

        Sorry if I misrepresented you. I just felt like this topic needed more clarification.

    • savorydish said

      It is a difference of definitions. But I’m ok with that. But I’m not ok with gross generalizations. It feels too much like black and white thinking. So I just ask that commenters be careful when they make those kinds of declarative statements.

      I agree from an evolutionary standpoint, that women are wired to find strong males or rather men who make them feel secure. This doesn’t mean a man who behaves like a caveman or doles out ultimatums (someone who is compensating for an inferiority-complex). This is not what it means to be a “real man”. Our society often misidentifies this person as being a real man. Which is why we have a large population of men who are tough on the outside, but an emotional wreck on the inside.

      A strong male is simply a nice guy who sticks around to take care of a woman. For a borderline this is the ultimate feeling of security. But a borderline is so sensitive to abandonment, it can also mean the ultimate fear. Even a nice guy is prone to doubts when confronted with BPD behavior, and that is what the borderline misinterprets as signs of abandonment.

      I have been burnt too many times to qualify myself as a nice guy. The niceness has been beaten out of my body. But even so, I feel obligated to defend the nice guy. I feel I need to hold it up as a moral standard. The guy you describe- the guy who pretends to be nice to manipulate others is not a nice guy at all. So why would you use that word to describe him?

      Similarly, a co-dependent is a co-dependent. Nothing more. Nothing less. I think you confuse the issue when you start giving him other titles like “nice guy”. Let’s call people what they really are and then the discussion becomes less complicated and contentious.

      This kind of misdirection works for selling self-help books, but I think it only confuses the topic and prolongs debates that have no conclusion. The topic of nice guys has lead us astray. The important thing to remember is healthy guys attract healthy women. If you’re attracting unhealthy women, then you have some house cleaning to do. Fix that which needs to be fixed and you won’t have to worry about being a “real man” or a “nice guy”. Everything will just fall into place.

      • savorydish said

        A woman who respects herself will naturally respect you. A woman who loathes herself, will test you because this gives her a false sense of power. If you have to keep your woman in check, you are with a woman who WILL screw you over when you’re not looking. You can NOT wrangle a woman who is fucked-up. Thinking that you can is co-dependency.

  10. Zee said

    OK Savory, I get it. I’m not gonna go back and forth with you on this one.

    • savorydish said

      Nothing personal, Zee. You have every right to your opinion and I appreciate your contributions. I just want people to be clear on what this blog is about. In the end, I think we agree on most points. I just felt the need to clarify my stance. I don’t want to give you the impression that I was attacking you or DSK. Thanks for your understanding.

      • savorydish said

        So let’s change the topic. We’ve got nice guys covered well enough. Let’s talk about guys on the opposite of the spectrum. On the show Girls, that would be Adam, Hannah’s hipster douchebag boyfriend.

        This is a guy who prides himself on being a douchebag. He treats Hannah’s heart like “monkey meat”. In his troubled mind, he’s being a real man. But he’s hiding something.

        Turns out he’s a recovering alcoholic/substance abuser. Turns out he likes to be degraded while masturbating. Oh yes, he’s a real piece of work.

        What alarms me is that Charlie and Adam are both caricatures. But Lena Dunham has portrayed these two as the only two options for women. In the words of Juli Weiner, they are two kinds of “skeevy”.

        This is misandry at its worst because it assumes that all men are “skeevy”. If you ever find yourself in a relationship with a woman who says “all men are pigs” or “all men are skeevy” RUN.

        I guarantee you that this woman has deep deep Man Hating issues. Why does she hate men so? Childhood sexual abuse is one possibility. It is more common than people would like to admit.

        Don’t ever fool yourself into thinking, you will prove her wrong. Because it will only make her want to prove you wrong. These women are convinced that all men are skeevy. Nothing you do will change that.

      • savorydish said

        The reality is most men are not skeevy. But if skeevy is what you grew up with than most likely that is what you will seek out well into your adulthood. That is your filter. Hannah is a perfect example of this.

        The show portrays her as having an amazing life (albeit filled with conflict). She seems to have amazing parents, but why is she so flawed? Because she’s 20 lbs over weight? No, it goes deeper than that. Running away from nice guys and running into the bedroom of skeevy men indicates low self-esteem and self-destructive tendencies.

        This TV show makes it seem like girls will be girls. But that’s where this show does these girls a disservice. Self-destructive women end up in abusive relationships or committing suicide. And if you fail to put everything in perspective, then you fail to prevent these tragedies.

  11. Zee said

    Borderlines are attracted to abusers in part, I think, because they are trying to have what some psychologists call a ‘correcetive experience.’ They are trying to ‘re-live’ their original trauma in an attempt to resolve or correct it in some way.This might explain some of the crazy stories where a borderline is a porn-star in bed, then when the guy comes out of the bathroom afterward, she’s crying. Creepy stuff, man . . .

    I admit that this theory sounds a bit specious, but still . . . my gut tells me that the ‘low self-esteem’ thing is too easy. Borderline attraction mechanisms are far more complex – and darker – than that, IMO. There’s a lot of bad ju-ju going on. That’s why I think that BPD is a soul-sickness. An untreated borderline’s interior landscape is like a Munch painting. (The ‘treated’ ones are not much better.)

    “A woman who loathes herself, will test you because this gives her a false sense of power.”

    — I do agree with that. Good point. They’ll use anything to bolster their false sense of self. This really speaks to the existential nature of BPD. More than anything else, a borderline lacks POWER – over HERSELF. In an attempt to address this problem, she exerts power-plays on those around her. Nearly ALL of the borderline behaviors speak to this: idealization, splitting, sexual manipulation, divide and conquer games, evoking empathy from others, histrionics, drama-causing. A borderline can go to a stranger’s funeral and somehow become the focus of everyone’s sympathy. These are all, at leats in part, POWER PLAYS, IMO.

    • savorydish said

      No, I agree that low self-esteem is just part of the BPD makeup. I also agree that borderlines (and to some degree, co-dependents as well) are trying to fix the past. We all do this, but borderlines especially. And people who were sexually abused as a child, definitely.

      I’m not sure what the exact term is, but it does involve re-living the past and trying to change it. But as I understand the term “corrective emotional experience”, that is actually a method of therapy whereby the patient learns new ways of experiencing the past. But this is under the guidance of a trained professional.

      It is important to note, that most untreated borderlines are NOT learning better ways of experiencing their past. They are merely superimposing their past on top of their present. And that’s why you have women crying after sex. Or troubled women misinterpreting a one night-stand in college as rape. These are not my own theories.This is all scientifically documented.

      When a woman cries during or after sex, that’s a serious red flag. I dated a woman who literally watched porn to learn about sex. She seemed to enjoy it alot. I was her first. But for no good reason, she broke into tears after we finished. It really freaked me out. It wasn’t until I learned about the effects of sexual abuse that I understood what was going on. She was re-living her past sexual abuse. Sex was her trigger.

      When a woman has conflicted feelings about sex that almost always points to childhood sexual abuse. If she is a borderline on top of that, then you better watch out. That is emotional napalm just waiting to explode in your face.

      • Driver said

        Wow..SD. Good to know about the “crying”. It happened to me with my ex (only the first time, though) but it was a little weird (and yes an alarm went off in my head). You never know what has happened in the past.

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